Suggested Changes to Base Weapons for 2.6

1: Superior Weapons

First of all, can we have the Attack Rating on Superior Weapons actually be useful? Right now it varies from +1 to +3.

That has to have been a mistake or typo when implemented. That change in AR does nothing.

Make it vary from +100 AR to +300 AR, that way the plus to attack rating on a superior weapon is actually slightly useful. Honestly, +300 AR is still worse than the equivalent of +15% ED in terms of how marginal it is.

2: Two Handed Weapons

Two handed weapons could use a damage boost. Currently +1 Strength adds +1% ED to melee weapons, while +1 Dexterity adds +1% ED to missile weapons. Traditionally (in D&D and derivatives) two-handed weapons have benefited 50% more from strength bonuses than one handed weapons. In D2R this would mean two handed melee weapons should get +1.5% ED per a point in Strength. I’d also suggest Bows should be changed to get +1% ED per point in Dexterity and +0.5% ED per a point in Strength, while Crossbows should get +0.5% ED per point in Dexterity and +1% ED per a point in Strength. (Crossbows are historically focused on strength over dexterity).

3: Crossbows

Crossbows are suffering right now, they used to be useful occasionally, but now they are almost never used. One of the historical benefits of Crossbows over Bows was that it was it required less training to make a good crossbowman compared to a bowman. This is sort of represented in the way Necromancers and Sorceresses are in some ways better using a Crossbow instead of a Bow - but only at initial use, as Increased Attack Speed is added Bows surpass Crossbows since Crossbow are capped at 11 frames per attack, while bows are capped at 10 frames for the Necromancer, and 9 for the Sorceress (for comparison bows are capped at 7 frames for the Amazon, and 8 for the Barbarian).

You’d think a Crossbow ought to make sense as a missile weapon for an Enchant Sorceress, but with enough increased attack speed a Bow is actually better. The cap for frames on a Crossbow needs to be lowered to 9. That’s what is needed for the Crossbow to compete with the Bow for an Enchant Sorceress.

The Bow is still going to be indisputably better for the Amazon and Barbarian.

Perhaps when making this change it might be good to give the Paladin and Assassin the same frames with a bow as the Barbarian (as those are all martial classes), so that they also are better off with a Bow than a Crossbow, but still leaving the Crossbow as an alternative for them if they are okay with 9 frames per attack instead of 8.

That’s the most essential change needed for Crossbows, though it’s not enough. Historically the other major benefit of Crossbows over Bows was its penetration power through armor. There are two possible ways to simulate this. One is to give Crossbows + Attack Rating, probably something like +100 AR for Normal Crossbows, +200 AR for Exceptional Crossbows, and +400 AR for Elite Crossbows (and have it so upgrading the base gives you the expected increase in AR). This would help enormously for non-Amazons using missile weapons to actually hit their targets and would also scale with difficulty level because of the difference from Normal to Elites.

This would of course stack with other +AR, so a superior elite crossbow (assuming the first change I proposed is accepted) could have +700 AR.

The second possible method would be something like -5% target defense for Normal Crossbows, -10% target defense for Exceptional, and -20% target defense for Elite. Exact numbers of course would need to be balanced.

4: Staves

Staves are of course targeted primarily at Casters, and suffer from two problems. The first is that a one handed weapon and shield can provide more modifiers than a single two handed weapon. This is particularly important to Casters as the two most important mods for them are +skills and Faster Cast Rate. Rather than changing the base staff for this problem, I’d recommend adding higher level Faster Cast affixes for Rare/Magical Staves.

Currently the Faster Cast Affixes available are:
Of the Apprentice (10% Faster Cast; item level 5)
Of the Magus (20% Faster Cast; item level 29)

Scepters can roll only “Of the Apprentice.” Orbs, Wands, and Staves can all roll either “Of the Apprentice” or “Of the Magus.”

Add at least two additional levels for Staves only:

Of the Wizard (40% Faster Cast, item level 55)
Of the Archmage (60% Faster Cast, item level 76)

There is also the second problem that shields provide block, and two handed weapons do not. This does not simulate well the fact that one of the ways a staff was historically used was to parry attacks.

Essentially, we need a “new” mechanic that allows a staff wielder to negate a melee attack either when attacking, or when standing still. I put new in quotes because in fact this mechanic already exists in Diablo II. It’s called Dodge, a skill on the Amazon.

I propose cloning that code, calling it “Parry” and give a % chance to trigger when being attacked when wielding a weapon with that attribute. For Staves I’d suggest something like 20% to 30% for the Normal Staves, 30% to 35% for the Exceptional Staves, and 35% to 40% on the Elite Staves.

I’d also recommend a new suffix that can spawn on specific types of weapons called “of Parrying” that adds +10% to 20% increased chance of Parrying. (Basically, similar to the “of Deflecting” that can spawn on shields).

Now the question arises as to how to handle an Amazon with Dodge and a weapon with Parrying on it. I suggest the same solution used for Critical Strike and Deadly Strike. They are both checked independently and so are not additive. Assuming an Amazon has 60% Dodge (achieved at Lvl 29) and 60% Parry (using a Staff with 40% parry and the "of Parrying suffix) that only gives an 84% chance of negating the melee attack. I don’t think Staffzons are going to become meta. The build most likely to benefit from this change is actually probably the Charge Paladin.

5: Swords

Swords are doing pretty well. They have some of the best runewords, and are nicely situated for most melee builds. One handed swords that is. Using Two handed swords as a two handed sword is rather rare. Barbs use two handed swords, but usually as one handers.

Two handed swords suffer from a similar problem of no blocking from a shield, and historically have also been used to parry (though not as effectively as staves). So I would suggest giving two handed swords a parry chance similar to Staves. Let’s say 10% to 20% on the Normal two handed swords, 20% to 25% on the Exceptional, and 25% to 30% on the Elite. But only on two handed swords being used as two handed swords, sorry barbs but two handed swords used as one handers don’t get the parry bonus.

Also, swords of all types can spawn with the “of Parrying” suffix. So you can’t have a 20% parrying sword as a base for a runeword, but a nice rare one handed sword can have it.

Additionally, swords were also used to penetrate armor, so let’s give all (both one and two handed) swords a + to Attack Rating. Let’s say +50 on Normal swords, +100 on Exceptional Swords, and +200 on Elite Swords.

6: Spears

Spears, suffer from the same issue of being a two handed weapon. They were also historically use to parry (though not as effectively as swords) and used to penetrate armor.

So let’s give two handed Spears (ie not Javelins) something like 0% to 10% chance to parry on Normal spears, 10% to 15% on Exceptional Spears, and 15% to 20% on Elite Spears. And a Spear can spawn with “of Parrying” suffix. So you could get a Rare Elite Spear with 40% parrying for your Spearazon, but that means forgoing a Runeword like Infinity.

Let’s also give +75 to Attack Rating on Normal Spears, +150 AR on Exceptional Spears, and +300 to AR on Elite Spears. The + to AR goes on Javelins as well as two handed spears.

7: Polearms

Polearms were historically used to deal with heavily armored opponents. Let’s give Polearms plus Attack Rating, and minus Monster Defense per Hit (already exists in game, see Malice runeword). Essentially the Polearm is damaging the enemy armor as you strike them.

Something like +75 to Attack Rating and -50 to Monster Defense on Hit for Normal Polearms, +150 AR and -100 to Monster Defense on Hit for Exceptional Polearms, and +300 to AR and -200 to Monster Defense on Hit for Elite Polearms.

As for parrying instead of making it a base attribute of Polearms, let’s just let Magical and Rare Polearm potentially spawn with the “of Parrying” suffix. So it’s not available for bases for rune words, but you can get parrying on a rare Polearm.

This also differentiates between Polearms and Spears for you Act 2 Merc bases. Do you want the greater survivability of a Spear base, or do you want the reduction in enemy defense from a Polearm (which might be important to you being able to hit the enemy more often).

8: Axes

Let’s treat the two handed axes similar to Polearms, so +75 to Attack Rating and -50 to Monster Defense on Hit for Normal Axes, +150 AR and -100 to Monster Defense on Hit for Exceptional Axes, and +300 to AR and -200 to Monster Defense on Hit for Elite Axes.

One Handed Axes only get the + to Attack Rating. Basically they lack the leverage a two handed axe or polearm has.

9: Clubs and Maces

Honestly, I think clubs and maces were more about putting the enemy in hit lock than penetrating armor, but that isn’t a mechanic I think we want to put on base items. So although it’s not historically accurate, I think minus to Monster Defense on Hit is probably the best pick since it does simulate the “having to hit the enemy repeatedly to get through the armor” aspect of maces and clubs.

-50 to Monster Defense on Hit for Normal Clubs and Maces, -100 to Monster Defense on Hit for Exceptional Clubs and Maces, and -200 to Monster Defense on Hit for Elite Clubs and Maces.

10: Hammers

War Hammers were designed to deal with armor. So let’s give +100 AR for Normal Hammers, +200 AR for Exceptional Hammers, and +400 AR for Elite Hammers. Let’s also give the two handed hammers -50 to Monster Defense on Hit for Hammers, -100 to Monster Defense on Hit for Exceptional Hammers, and -200 to Monster Defense on Hit for Hammers.

11: Daggers

Change Daggers to gain Enhanced Damage bonus from dexterity instead of strength.

Daggers didn’t deal with armor by damaging it, or by penetrating it, but mostly targeting gaps to avoid the armor. So let’s do something different for daggers. Let’s give them minus target defense. Say, -5% target defense for Normal Daggers, -10% target defense for Exceptional Daggers, and -20% target defense for Elite Daggers.

Daggers were also sometimes used as parry daggers, so let’s allow rare and magical daggers access to the “of Parrying” suffix.

12: Bows

Bows are doing better than Crossbows, but they do need some AR like all the other weapons, so let’s give them +50 AR for Normal Bows, +100 AR for Exceptional Bows, and +200 AR for Elite Bows. (I suppose it would make more realism sense to put this on the actual arrows, introducing various arrow types, but that’s its own issue. And this is a simpler change more likely to be implemented).

There done.

As people might have noticed, this is primarily focused around giving weapons a better chance to hit. This is one of the major problems facing non caster characters. It’s also a very unfun problem when you can’t hit the enemy. This would be a way to address that problem while also differentiating the different weapon bases more (since they approach the issue in different ways). Different builds will benefit from different approaches.

It also works with the scaling since it gives a further reason beyond just damage to hunt elite bases, and superior bases as you level up. You really don’t struggle with chance to hit in the early game, but end game really needs a more ways to improve your chance to hit.

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With your AR suggestion, what you’re asking for is over powered. You’re asking for +100 to +300 AR in normal act 1 Blood Moor. Then if the weapon is socketed 2 you can add 2 chipped amethysts for an additional +80 AR. On top of that, amulets, rings and gloves spawn with up to +20 AR. Then there are charms that spawn with AR. All obtainable while never leaving the Blood Moor in normal difficulty. Then there is the act 2 offensive merc! And we haven’t even begun to discuss AR derived from skills.

+3 is fine. It gives your eth Breath of the Dying Thunder Maul +53 to AR and not +350 to AR.

Hammers already have undead damage and a 10% ed for every hard 100 strength stats.

As the game is, all characters can be built to solo hell in an 8 player game. It’s up to the player to figure out how to do it. Making the game easier is not how to “figure it out”. I literally have a frenzy barbarian that I only play on /p8 and he only uses blue magic items.

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Honestly, I found this extremely confusing that you felt +300 AR could be overpowered, even in the early game.

I’ve never had any trouble with chance to hit in the early game. It’s only later that I figured out that you are a speed runner. I guess a large +AR in the early game does benefit melee speed runners greatly, but I really don’t think speed runners ought to be the basis for balance adjustments, do you?

Besides, Sorceress and other caster builds have such a huge advantage in speed running that I don’t think melee speed runners having a chance at a lucky find of a superior weapon is going to make them suddenly the build of choice for a speed runner.

I think we should focus more on the end game for balance, and in the end game non-caster builds suffer greatly from lack of chance to hit. Sure, there are a few builds that are viable, and at least one for every character type, but I’d like there to be a lot more options than just the usual. If you’ve ever tried to build a bow using character besides an Amazon then you would know that chance to hit becomes quite the struggle in Hell difficulty. Indeed, any build (excepting the Enchant Sorceress) that uses a normal attack instead of an attack skill suffers from not being able to hit monsters.

There are huge numbers of builds out there that just can’t compete currently because you can’t hit anything with them. Even with a Blessed Aim Act 2 Merc. I know, I’ve tried to build them (a Necromancer using Brand) and I’m still scrapping 70% chance to hit even with a Blessed Aim Act 2 Merc. I have to fill my inventory with nothing but AR charms. That’s not a good design limitation.

Nor is this overpowered for people playing the game through normally. I mean, hardly anyone uses an amethyst socketed weapon except maybe a Holy Fire/Freeze Paladin. Additionally, you have to upgrade weapons to deal more damage as you go through the game. A superior Scimitar with +300 AR is not going to last through Normal, let alone into Nightmare or Hell. (Unless, again, you are playing something like a Holy Fire Paladin).

So, I’m not even sure how much benefit it would give most speed runners. Speed runners by definition are not farming the Blood Moor. How often do you find a superior weapon of the type you need? And then find it again in its Exceptional form in Nightmare, and again in Elite form in Hell?

And why is a +350 to AR Breath of the Dying so bad? Breath of the Dying is end game gear, +350 AR barely moves the needle on chance to hit at end game. And you think +3 to AR is something useful once you’re at end game?

I don’t understand the opposition to giving equipment dependent builds (which most non caster builds are) options that allow them to actually hit monsters.

I’m not a speed runner. I’m a /p8 player on single player and on ladder. I have on mules every unique, set item and rune in the game, my only reason to play is to 99 a character. The only items I’m still collecting are ethereal uniques. I literally use 8 copies of the game to make my own manually played 8 player games on US West Hardcore Ladder – 8 game windows on 1 screen and each character played manually.

Please tell me specifically what melee builds can’t hit anything?

I’m rather confused by this as well. Do people not know charms exist or something? Or know about items like angelic, metalgrid, raven frost? Or are they just confusing monster block with hit chance? Or do they not understand how large of an impact level has on hit chance?

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Well, some of the specific builds aren’t melee, but they are combat, ie not caster.

One I’ve tried to make was a Brand crossbow wielding Necromancer. It’s fine on normal monsters because of Ignore Target Defense, but when I try to use him against Mephisto it runs into problems. Using Metagrid, Raven Frost, and a 118 Attack Rating Rare Ring I get a chance to hit of less than 50%. I even tried switching out for Angelic’s (single ring, I need to keep the Raven Frost for Cannot Be Frozen), despite that messing up my resistances. Still can’t get above 60% chance to hit. (That’s on top of the 50% block rate that Hell Mephisto has).

I also tried it with an Ice bow wielding Sorceress, although I can’t remember the details. Now that I think about it, it’s mostly been trying to build non-Amazon bow wielders that I’ve run into the problem with. But I’ve heard the same thing from other players that if they try to build a character that uses the normal attack instead of a skill they just can’t hit stuff.

I’ve also heard complaints from Kicker Assassins that they can’t hit Ubers, etc.

Maybe I’m hanging out with the wrong players, but the sense I get is that there are standard builds for combat characters, and if you use those builds you are fine, but if you try to build anything quirky or different, you suddenly find you can’t hit stuff.

And I think it should be pointed out that these are often lower damage builds in the first place. Having an underpowered build that can still work even if inefficiently can still be a lot of fun. But a build that just can’t hit stuff is particularly un-fun. Even people who enjoy off meta builds struggle to have fun when half the time you click attack on a monster it does nothing.

You talk about superior weapons

What about an idea I’ve had a long time ago and still cherish today

Quality of item is expanded to the whole itemization

Meaning a Unique can spawn primitive or it could spawn superior

Then a cube recipe is added to upgrade the bad qualities up to just normal… can only get superior from drops

Then add a new quality, pristine which goes up to 25% Ed but it’s super rare

Also add in ability for daggers to be used as offhand as “parry shields”

This is a creative change. Melee struggles in hell before GG gear so this would help immensely to close the gap with casters.

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I mean I don’t know what you were going for… but literally the first build I slammed together for a necro using a brand xbow at level 90 had a 58% hit chance vs Meph without any charms other than anni-torch AND with minimum dex req, 70 all res and cannot be frozen.

The second I tossed in an inventory of some mediocre charms, upped the level to 95, and dropped 100 vita for 100 dex the chance to hit was 71%.

I have ZERO idea why anyone would want to make a brand using bow necro… but even with that absurd concept… you can still hit 70%+ chance to hit with less effort than a lot of people put into their builds.

Also with an infinity merc EVERY build can hit just fine. That necro hits 95% with an infinity on the merc easy. I mean at 95 it can hit Uber Baal at 83% chance… AR is fine, ya just gotta know how to build it :stuck_out_tongue: (Obviously not saying it would live long enough to actually do anything here, just talking purely AR.)

Actually looking into it more it’s not even hard to hit 95% hit chance on Meph with a Brand using Necro that still has +17 summoning skills. Still dunno why ANYONE would want to do this… but yeah it’s doable.
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Literally worst build ever… but here is a 93% hit chance one with +17 summoning skills and 3004-8577 xbow damage on Hell Meph. Also keeps Cannot Be Frozen, Teleport, near full Vita max, and resist cap.

https://d2.maxroll.gg/d2planner/bc0106ae

100% false.

Melee flies through hell with average gear. Eg., ww barb using Lore helm; Bonesnap or Steeldriver mauls; Myth, Lionheart or Smoke armor; Sigon gloves, belt and boots; Manald and Naglering rings; Nokazan, Eye of Etlitch or Mahim amulets and some Normal dropped charms.

I really like the changes you suggest. On top of this, adding a boost to rare items and opening bases for crafted items might give players alternatives to uniques/runewords and fit more into the fantasy. The thought of having a Paladin Zealer crushing enemy defenses with a nice crafted blood hammer would be really good

Because melee is so weapon dependent, we really need improvements to the base weapons. I feel like the above suggestions would both help with that, and would also give each weapon type some more flavor.

Rares would benefit from some changes to the affixes, particularly Chance to Cast and Charges, which currently are so underpowered that they are often viewed as bas affixes since you’d be better off with other affixes instead.

Crafted Items could benefit from a major overhaul. Currently they seem to be targeted as items to use while playing through the game, but no one is willing to use them for that purpose. Instead, the only recipes that are used are either for best in slot (like Caster Amulets) or for “good enough” end game gear to use while looking for better items (ie Blood Gloves, Blood Belt, Caster Belt).

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