Martial Arts Assassins Still Need a Little More

The new Mosaic runeword offers an interesting idea but its implementation isn’t quite there to make MA sin feel good to play. MA sin’s big drawback is how many actions it requires to perform abilities with how (relatively) underpowered charge-up skills are on an individual basis when compared to other builds. I believe MA sin should be built utilizing 2+ charge-up skills (more info at the bottom), and my suggestions here are relative to that idea.

I have some proposals, they can be (mostly) taken in any combination (some are incompatible with each other):

QoL 1: Make the charge stack expiry timer duration refresh OR extend when you activate a charge. Right now, if you activate a charge from a stack, the expiry timer does not refresh, and you will lose your remaining charges after 15 seconds of your last charge-up attempt, even if you recently activated and lost a charge. This was not an issue in LoD because the whole stack was consumed when you used a finishing skill. This would make the charge maintaining micro easier, especially on something like a controller (this is a high micro build).

QoL 2: When the charge stack expiry timer duration hits 0, don’t remove the entire stack, simply remove 1 charge and refresh the duration. Right now, if your charge expires, you lose the entire stack. Instead, you should lose 1 charge and the cooldown refreshes partially or fully.

QoL 2.5: Make the expiration of a charge activate the charge on Assassin’s location regardless of target. The Cobra Strike and a couple of lower level charges require a target but the rest can cast in place without issue so I’d just suggest ignoring the ones that don’t cast missiles.

QoL 3 (exclusive to QoL 1 and 2, I would not have the other two with this one): Make charge stack expiry timer duration infinite (or close to). I think this is slightly too strong, because then maintaining all 6 charge stacks becomes a breeze, especially with the chance to not consume a charge. If this one were implemented, I think limiting the amount of charge stacks would be in order (so that you can’t have all 6 with minimal effort).

QoL 4: Make the charge stack expiry timer shared on all stacks. If you refresh your Tiger Strike stack, all of your other stacks refresh as well, so you only need to actively maintain one of them. This idea is a little strong in some combinations. I don’t know how I would combine this with other ideas, but just throwing this here incase someone else has a good idea.

Mosaic related option 1: Make Mosaic’s chance to not consume 50% and let two stack to 100%. I would absolutely not combine this with QoL 3. However, I think 100% with QoL 1 and/or 2 would be fine. Your charge stack expiry timer would be infinite for as long as you could keep finishing on monsters (Kreygasm). Once you go to town or face downtime, you would slowly lose a charge at a time. You would be allowed to have all 6, but maintaining that many would be a challenge, and force you into specializing for 2-3 of them.

Mosaic related option 2: Have Mosaic’s chance to not consume be somewhere between 30-40% and stack to 60-80%. I think this would be fine with QoL 3, as you still have to occasionally rebuild a charge, but you never have to worry about them expiring. I would still limit the amount of charge stacks you can have, but maintaining all 6 with the charge consumption still being possible makes it difficult, so the limit is not 100% necessary. Alternatively, this one can also be combined with QoL 1 and 2 as well.

(edit) Balance change: Reduce or remove some or all of the NextDelays on the MA skills. A lot of them have NextDelay of 4, which makes a lot of their missiles redundant if you kick really fast.

(edit 2) For configurations with less than 100% chance to not consume, it becomes difficult to know what charges you do or don’t have. Many people want a charge tracker of some sort. I think it’s hard to implement a number counter and have it actually be useful. But if there is a way to do so then that would be great. Or use audio or visual cues for when a specific charge stack has lost a charge (consumption or expiration). The cues could be unique per stack. Or have a new overlay akin to the “broken armor” overlay that indicates your orb counts in some fashion. In my opinion, throwing the # onto the skill selection (like how quantity shows on throwing skills) does very little to help you know which ones are or aren’t missing a charge.

I think you should not go higher than 50% on a single Mosaic because you are choosing to have the QoL of nearly-infinite charge stacks over more damage or defense of a different second claw or a shield. It’s a choice. Having higher than 50% on one and they either don’t stack or they stack diminishingly (one is 50% but 2 is 75%) either removes a lot of the tradeoff or removes the reasoning for picking up the second Mosaic.

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For me personally, Mosaic related option 1 with QoL 1 and 2 would be my goto. You allow for the flexibility of all 6, the micro is better, and it keeps you in the action and keeps the feels of “charge-up” mechanics without having to constantly do it mid-battle. But being stuck at 100% means you can’t downgrade to a lower charge (in situations where you may want to) unless you let it expire, but the same goes for the 20% chance to consume to downgrade (though you could swap weapons to always consume a charge).

I realize that virtually all of the charge-up skills are not strong on their own, and I think that’s why these changes make sense. I think MA sin should be a pick and choose of 2+ charge-ups, and not focus on one only. A Lightning MA sin could run Claws of Thunder 3 and Phoenix Strike 2. A Cold MA sin could run Blades of Ice 2 (or 3 for defense) and Phoenix Strike 3. You can have hybrids. A Fire MA sin could run Fists of Fire 2/3, Tiger Strike, and Dragon Tail (check out dtail sin if you haven’t, fairly strong as is if the micro wasn’t so bad) and allow for secondary elements to deal with immunities.

Would enjoy feedback or knowing which combination(s) you prefer.

11 Likes

Agree that currently Mosaic is not quite strong enough for someone to want to main an MA sin. I like the idea of dual Mosaic stacking up to 80-100%. Maybe it can roll 40-50 on chance to not consume charge.

3 Likes

I haven’t played any assassins yet in D2R, but one thing I always wanted for MA, is fixing Dragon Tail so that it only suffered from fire immunities. As it was, or is, Dragon Tail can’t deal with physical immunes either. I don’t really get how it works that way, but it’s a real shame. Tiger Strike + Dragon Tail is a really fun build, but being crippled by two immunities for one skill makes it kinda bad end game. Shrug. Oh well.

Blizzard has implemented and buffed the sorc and pala to S - Tier for that matter.

„Who needs more than 2 classes?“

yeah, but it double dips. so both physical damage and fire dmg scales it. you get double the damage but double teh immunity. dragon tail has the highest single target damage skill in the game. it can get up to 190k in a single kick with a perfect build (not tooltip dmg, effective damage dealt to a single monster, this includes -res and everything).

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the base damage still scales off boots. IIRC to get the most single target damage, you’d need to use Dragon Claw.

IDK what you mean by double dips, it takes the physical damage after tiger strike and converts it to fire. Or is that what you mean? it takes the tiger strike damage on the boots, and multiplies it with the dragon tail % conversion. Makes sense I guess. I’ll take your word for it.

I don’t remember % damage or +min/max scaling from items working with it.

I do remember being able to reach absurd amounts of damage with dragon claw though. OFC you’d want something like an ethereal cruel claw of evisceration or something of the sort. ethereal magic/rares are going to have the most possible damage on them anyways. And of course, all damage from items work with it.

shrug, maybe you know better.

yeah, but fortitude, phoenix, fanaticism, might, etc still apply… then you use amp from lacerator, then you have a mercenary with infinity, and you stack fire dmg%. and lets not forget dragon tail can get up to a 6x multiplier, which is multiplicative of your total kick damage.

it doesnt just take your damage. it takes your applied damage. if the monster has -100 physical res, it will take double your damage. then it applies that as fire damage. if the monster has -100 fire res, you are quadrupling your damage.

maybe you’re right though, i don’t know how much damage dragon claw can do in one (two) swing. charged strike was considered the highest single target damage skill for a long time, and its easier (cheaper) to get to that high of damage. but dtail beats it by a decent amount.

you mean boot damage, right? :stuck_out_tongue:

I was under the impression that fort and phoenix did not apply, but fanat and might did.

fortitude and phoenix do apply. all offhand dmg% (cept dtu/dtd) apply, same as smite. here’s what doesn’t apply:
Weapon’s Enhanced Damage
+Minimum Damage
+Maximum Damage
Damage +
+% Damage to Demons
+% Damage to Undead
Claw Mastery
Critical Strike
Deadly Strike

on the wiki it says:
Properties that do not work with kicks:

  • Deadly/Critical Strike
  • Enhanced Damage from equipment (if it works it doesn’t display on character screen)
  • +% Damage to Demons/Undead
    • Min / Max damage (so no 3/20/20 charms for kickers)
  • Claw Mastery bonuses (Boots are not Claws!)
  • Melee mods such as IAS, Crushing Blow, Open Wounds, prevent monster heal, life leech, etc. are not applied from the secondary claw (in a Dual-Claw setup).

enhanced damage means fort and phoenix.

also I see no reason why enhanced damage% on secondary claw would work. that doesn’t make any sense, because the enhanced damage goes to the claw, and claws are not boots.

just like how enhanced damage on secondary weapons do not apply to the primary weapon.

it works, it doesn’t display on character screen.
ed% from your second claw wouldnt work. ed% from your first claw wouldnt either. ed% from your shield would though.

on an unrelated note, dragon tail is bugged, go upvote the issue so its fixed: Dragon Tail Attack Speed Issue

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i guess i’ll take your word for it :stuck_out_tongue:

One of my forever iso claws is a magic jewelers runic talon of quickness.

I would love to see mosaic stacking up to 100%. That would make for a fun build

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i think so too, and i think other QoL buffs and change some nhd’s as well and it would be fun to play

May I add another QoL option?

Remove charges consumption, make them expire faster.

I know it sounds insane at first, but think about it. With the 2.4 changes they are already moving the martial artist from burst to constant damage. Making the finishers not expire any charges would make the gameplay pattern very fluid: get charges, spam finishers for X seconds, refresh charges.

Obviously Dragon Talon should probably be changed to proc only once every cast, but w/e.

it wouldn’t be a terrible change, but i think your idea is counterintuitive to the current design issue of martial arts assassin, spending more time charging than consuming.

however, remove charge consumption is the functional idea of mosaic, and getting up to 100% would be wonderful. but even that alone makes this awkward to play, as even with that you will STILL spend a significant amount of time charging.

do note that utilizing only 1 charge up skill won’t do much for you, each individual charge-up skill is weak compared to a standard caster or melee build. the design idea is to maintain 6-9 charges (2-3 stacks) to compensate, since they can stack together. maintaining 3 charges at 100% with 0 other modifications to MA skills is not bad, but its sitll underpowered. it just wouldnt feel bad to play anymore. maintaining 6+ charges at 100% with 0 other modifications would be very hard though. and thats what i think is healthier for MA sins. now, having to maintain more than 1 stack greatly increases the work, which is also counterintuitive to MA sin’s current playstyle issue. but the anti-expiration QoL fixes greatly help that.

Well, I guess both our ideas are like: build up the charges (3-6-9 whatever), kill pack, run to next pack, refresh charges, kill pack, repeat.

The different is that with a shorter time and no consumption you would need to be faster between packs, which I agree it sucks when you are getting loot.

On the other hand with no expiration, but consumption, chances are that you are going to have to rebuild/refresh charges in the same battle, which can be annoying and a dps killer.

i think 100% but current expiration timer (or maybe slightly shorter) but activating a charge (regardless if its consumed) either refreshing the stack expiration timer or adding duration to it would work well. and instead of expiring the whole stack, lose only one at a time.

This… is actually kind of a neat idea. And Mosaic could just extend that expiration timer instead of its current effect. E.g. if finishers and normal attacks apply charge-up effects, don’t consume charges, and charge-up effects expire after 10 seconds, Mosaic could add 2.5 seconds to that.

But yeah, Dragon Talon kind of messes it up. It just ends up functioning too similarly to Dragon Claw, except obviously faster. So if you did tune it down (e.g. only applies charge effects every 3 kicks), there would just always end up being some point where one or the other is the better finisher because they would do the same basic thing (multiple attacks while standing in place).

edit: This is my whiteboard idea for how I would do this:

  • Charge effects apply for a fixed duration of 8 seconds. The effects are cumulative, so if you have 3 charges of Phoenix Strike, all your attacks and finishers unleash all three effects for the remaining duration.
    • It’s possible 8 isn’t the right number (e.g. maybe 6 is more appropriate), but that’s where I would start.
  • Dragon Talon, however, consumes 1 charge at random per kick from any charges you have accumulated. So if you have three Tiger Strike charges and 1 Fists of Fire charge, 1 of those 4 charges is randomly expended on the first kick, 1 of the 3 remaining for the second kick, and so on. Combined with the fixed duration for charges imposing a limit on how much you can charge up, I’d probably start here for testing.
  • Mosaic’s special property is replaced with “Charges from charge-up skills last 2 seconds longer”
  • Rework Next Hit Delay. I’ve gone into this in other posts how this should work to do what it exists to do (prevent skills like Nova from dealing absurd damage) without causing all the collateral damage (one player dealing 0 damage because their target is under NHD from another player’s skill).