so i have the runes to make my first infinity! and i also have a eth 4os thresher… but was thinking about holding out for a eth 4os GT… is there that much of a difference between the 2? or does it not really matter?
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Infinity:
For DPS purpose:
CA > GPA > GT > Thresher > CV
For IAS purpose:
GT > Thresher > CA > GPA > CV
I’d feel perfectly comfortable using a thresher for infinity, easily tho. Lesser requirements and easier to trade. It’s the mario of ininities. Perfectly well rounded.
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Since Infinity can now be made in Spears, what do you think about using a Mancatcher base instead? It’s faster than both the Thresher and the Giant Thresher on an Act 2 Merc.
And it can also be used by a Spear focused Amazon, so I’d think would provide more trade options.
What are your thoughts?
Wouldn’t it be better to make it in an Amazon Class specific spear and get that extra +3 skills?
If you are certain an Amazon is going to be using it then yes it’s probably better to use the Class Specific spear. But if you want an Infinity that can be used by both an Act 2 Merc and an Amazon using Spear skills, then Mancatcher is probably the way to go.
And as I pointed out it attacks 1 frame faster than the Thresher or Giant Thresher on an Act 2 Merc (for both Jab and normal attacks), so if you are focused on the Crushing Blow effect it’s arguably a better choice for an Act 2 Merc anyways.
EDIT: Mancatcher is also 2 frames faster than the Matriarchal Spear, so it depends on how important that +3 skill is versus faster attack speed.
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yeah that’s a good point. Especially if you’re limited to how much ias you can get on the build.
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Wonder why mancatcher didn’t really catch on too much in here. It was the go-to when they allowed polearms to have insight in mods
eth 4os GT - when you find one, be sure to trade it for 5 more Bers.
I’ve seen 6 eth threshers, I’ve seen some superior threshers, I’ve seen some Giant Threshers…
but I ain’t ever seen an eth giant thresher, let alone a superior eth giant thresher… You’ll have those runes in your pocket come judgement day if your luck is anything like mine.
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I cast the idea away because the damage looked pretty bad.
Any update to that with spears now? I know man catcher is faster than thresher.
As of 2.4, stygian pike has got the same speed and average damage as an eth GPA with the difference that it always get 4 sockets so you can easily find a 15ed stygian for cheap and larzuk it which does more damage in the end regardless of your infinity roll.
Once you have any IAS from gear, Threshers and Giant Threshers, will catch up to Mancatcher in atk frames and do more dmg and by the time you dump 2 Bers to make an Infinity, you should be able to afford at least a Treachery or Andy’s to reach this breakpoint. Also keep in mind that mercs will be using ethereal bases whereas an Amazon will not. A non-ethereal mancatcher is therefore really only useful for an Amazon so I don’t see it having any additional trade value after Day 1 of launch. Finally, non-ethereal Mancatchers are a really easy find. So even if it did have any added value, it has a very low base value.
Well that’s not necessarily true. It depends on how much IAS you have.
Both the Thresher and the Great Thresher are -10 IAS for the Act 2 Mercenary. So they have the same breakpoints at the same IAS from gear, suggesting that the Great Thresher is simply better than a Thresher for a Merc, due to very slightly higher average damage (though it has a much higher strength requirement, so probably not worth it).
However the Mancatcher is a -20 IAS base for the Act 2 Merc, which means it reaches faster frame rates at lower IAS levels. With zero IAS it is 1 frame rate faster than the Threshers for either normal or Jab attacks. 13 at 12 frames respectively compared to 14 and 13 frames for the Threshers. For a lvl 98 act 2 Merc, assuming Ethereal weapons and a perfect roll on the Enhanced damage that would be 2666 damage per a second for the normal attack on the Mancatcher and 7695 damage for the Jab attack. Compared to 2792 for normal, and 8010 for Jab using the Giant Thresher (the higher damage of the two Threshers). This does not take into account the difference in speed for applying Crushing Blow which favors the Mancatcher.
At +20 IAS (from wearing Andariel’s Visage), the frame rates drop to 11 for both Jab and normal attacks using the Mancatcher, or 12 frames for both Jab and normal attack when using the Threshers. Comparing damage per a second that would be 3453 and 9173 for the Mancatcher, versus 3596 and 9483 for the Giant Thresher. (Note the +Strength on the Andy will make the damage a little higher than otherwise, but it applies to both weapons so comparisons are still valid).
At 45% IAS (from wearing Treachery), the frame rates for the Mancatcher are 10 for both Jab and normal attacks, with damage per a second of 3466 and 9233. While the frame rates for the Giant Thresher are 11 for normal attacks and 10 for Jab, with damage per a second of 3553 and 10413 respectively.
At 65% IAS (from Andy and Treachery), the frame rates for the Mancatcher are 9 for both Jab and normal attacks, with damage per a second of 4220 and 11211. While the frame rates for the Giant Thresher are 10 for normal attacks and 10 for Jab, with damage per a second of 4283 and 11379 respectively.
Once the effects of Crushing Blow triggering slightly faster for the Mancatcher are taken into account I think an argument can be made that the Mancatcher is superior for the Act 2 Mercenary. Especially considering that the strength requirement is much lower. However, probably not enough of a difference that you can’t reasonably use the Giant Thresher or Thresher instead.
Remember that the Merc has to be lvl 83 to use Andariel’s Visage. Ethereal Thresher can be used starting at lvl 63. Ethereal Mancatcher can be used starting at lvl 65 (assuming no +to Dexterity). Ethereal Giant Thresher can be used starting at lvl 78 (assuming no + to stats).
Taking all of that into account, I’d probably make the Infinity in either a Thresher or a Mancatcher, but preferably a Mancatcher.
Good point though about an ethereal Mancatcher not being useful for an Amazon.
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You did all the math and proved that Thresher and Giant Thresher do more dmg at any levels of IAS just to turn around and say that a Mancatcher is better? Interesting take…
If you are speedrunning and cannot find IA anywhere I can see the arguments for a mancatcher. If it’s anything past Day 1 of ladder, I cannot.
Plus, there’s arguably even better bases beyond Thresher and Giant Thresher.
GT has always been considered the best base, what bases are “arguable better”?
Mancatcher does too little damage. If you want a CB poke stick better stick with eth thresher otherwise CA, GPA and GT are all better depending on the setup. For example, ral-ed Andy+Forty+Infinity GPA does the most damage. If you put a 15ias/30 fire resistance jewel inside (very expensive) GT becomes better. In all other situations with more ias GPA and Cryptic Axe are favoured. Just so you know, you can use a 3os tiara with 8% ll instead of andy for 45ias helmet.
With Andy and Treachery an Ethereal Thresher averages 20 more damage per a sec than an Ethereal Mancatcher, and 70 more dps when using Jab.
However the Ethereal Mancatcher is 1 frame faster on both normal attacks and Jab. So arguably Crushing Blow will trigger faster and that’s probably enough to make the Mancatcher superior.
The Ethereal Giant Thresher has the same attack speed as a Thresher, so it’s always superior to a Thresher since it does more damage and triggers CB at the same rate. However it has significantly higher strength requirements, so maybe the slight increase in average damage is not worth it.
The Ethereal Cryptic Axe is both slower and does less damage per a second than the Ethereal Giant Poleaxe so it seems that no matter what you favor the Giant Poleaxe is always superior to the Cryptic Axe.
The Ethereal Giant Poleaxe is slower than the Ethereal Giant Thresher (1 frame slower on normal attack, but the same on Jab) but does more damage per a second, and it has lower requirements than the Giant Thresher.
TLDR:
Mancatcher is the fastest base, while Giant Poleaxe has the most damage per a second. If you care more about applying Crushing Blow the Mancatcher is probably better, if care more about damage per a sec Giant Poleaxe is.
Of course this is assuming Treachery and Andariel’s Visage without using an IAS jewel. If you add more IAS things can start to change again, but I think that setup is so expensive people who have it can figure it out themselves.
For completion sake I also looked at the other possible bases when using Andy and Treachery.
An Ethereal Stygian Pike has the same average damage per a second and the same frame rates as an Ethereal Giant Poleaxe while having lower strength requirements, so it’s an equivalent base, and slightly preferable to the GPA.
An Ethereal Ghost Spear has the same average damage per a second and the same frame rates as an Ethereal Giant Poleaxe and Ethereal Stygian Pike while having lower strength requirements but higher dexterity requirements than either, so it’s an equivalent base, but worse than both alternatives on the requirements front.
An Ethereal War Pike has significantly lower frame rates than any of the other choices, and slightly worse damage than a Giant Poleaxe, so not worth using.
TLDR after looking at all the options:
Mancatcher is the fastest base, while Giant Poleaxe or Stygian Pike has the most damage per a second. If you care more about applying Crushing Blow the Mancatcher is probably better, if care more about damage per a sec Stygian Pike is best, (slightly better than the GPA because it has a lower strength requirement).
However, all the bases with the exception of the War Pike (far too slow) and Colossal Voulge (low damage and slow) are close enough that it probably doesn’t matter to most players who aren’t trying to optimize an extra hundred damage per a second.
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Treachery is an inferior runeword compared to fortitude. There is only one single scenario where treachery is more useful, for a summon necro combined with guilli because necro can cast life tap and that’s it. Fortitude is always better.
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That isn’t true in most cases. treachery gives physical resist, better frames, and prevents lower resist or conviction from gibbing the merc.
Nope, the damage isn’t there, the defense rating sucks and if you’re unlucky he’ll die before fade procs. That +5% to maximum light resistance is very important vs souls in throne room.
Also to add, a simple eth Thresher beats Mancatcher in every use case possible.
Standard setup is:
Andy with 30fr/15ias Jewel with eth fortitude and infinity GT.