If you are going to only allow 1 summon for druids

This is the prime example of how not to design a tree. What you end up with is 80 to 100 points dumped in this tree only to have one useable skill and a new spamming spell for single target damage. The developers pitched the changes in December as: “Regarding Summon skills, we believe Summons are weak in high difficulty. On this front, we’re evaluating health gains per level, quality-of-life improvements, damage output, and new synergies for Ravens, Wolves, and Vines.”

Let’s start by evaluating skills and synergies and see if the changes lived up to the hype:

  • Oak Sage at Level 20 provides +125% max life
      For comparison, Level 20 Battle Orders provide +92% Max Life, Mana, and Stamina and persists for a set time without the worry losing half of your HP randomly when an AOE skill kills your Oak Sage in Hardcore mode.
  • Heart of the Wild at Level 20 provides 158% Attack Rating and 153% Damage
      For comparison, Level 20 Fanaticism provides +135% Attack Rating, +35% Attack Speed, and +186% Party Damage/+373% Personal Damage. Overall inferior spell compared to Fanaticism with the added bonus of being venerable to attacks and having to recast on a fairly consistent basis on Hell difficulty.
  • Spirit of Barbs used to be a far inferior Thorns aura that was able to be 1 shot in hell to now being equivalent to the changed Thorns aura only it’s still able to die quickly in hell to ranged and casters.
  • Raven, with 80 points total with 20 in each of the summons, allows you to be a caster that does equivalent damage to Summon Grizzly + wolves at the same level. Who wouldn’t want to spam Raven instead of Tornado for a fraction of the damage and no AOE? This is the tree that has ZERO AOE and you are only allowed one to five pets at a time depending on which you cast and the wonderful addition was to continuously cast 5 ravens over and over overhead as your total damage output is equivalent to that of a single bear + 5 spirit wolves out at the same time. Which, ironically, is still substantially worse than what a Necro can manage with 43 points in summoning especially considering current versions of spirit wolves and ravens don't benefit from physical damage modifiers.
  • Summon Spirit Wolf cold damage is an interesting change from the original option but Cold is the most common immune type in Hell. Having cold + physical immune is a pretty common occurrence in Hell. Furthermore, Spirit wolves damage doesn't scale well at all thanks to it being all elemental damage (cold) and none of the physical damage auras or effects such as HOTW, Zeal, Might, or amp damage actually apply to the sprit wolves. As a result, you end up with a cold skill that doesn't scale with the rest of your physical build.
      Spirit wolves could make for an interesting synergy with elemental druids as an alternative to the typical 1 point grizzly builds. This would require some HP buffs and relevant synergies.

    As it stands, you spend 60 points into both wolves + bear only to be able to cast one type of the 3 summons. It becomes 60 points for 1 very underwhelming skill. It’s time to reevaluate the synergies and break them away from the other two summons.

    One proposition would be to tie the Wolves and Grizzly HP to a synergy in Lycanthropy and then increase the Wolves damage through synergies with Werewolf. Grizzly damage can be increased with Wearbear.

    Alternative might be to add synergies for bear and wolves with the vines and creepers.
    For example:
    Solar Creeper could add +% fire damage to all summons

    Maybe have these creepers that consume corpses also do a small splash damage to make investing points into these skills actually worthwhile for later game.

    Oak Sage, HOTW, and Spirit of Barbs are largely inferior group buffs compared to their counterparts from other classes. The only difference is they can also die pretty easily and have to be recast in the middle of a fight. These spirits have poor AI, they always end up in the way of ranged damage and get 1 or 2 shot. They are largely useless in boss fights as any AOE effect will trigger them dead. Since changing the core AI is probably out of the question, these sprits need a massive buff to ensure they stay alive when they are needed the most. Losing your oaksage to an extra fast, fant aura, and cursed Minions of Destruction just about ensures the end of your HC journey. What good is a life buff when its not actually available when needed? What good is a damage buff when it ends up dead when in long fights?

    Another thing to consider with the spirits are synergies from these skills. Much like how Berserk now has synergies from Battle Orders, adding synergies with other builds would help with build diversity.

    Casting ravens continously even at 12 hits per cast is still not a viable build option for summoning. Furthermore, this level 1 skill shouldn’t require 60 additional points to be viable.

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Man, I just had an idea for Spirit Wolves I think would have been pretty awesome (even if it wouldn’t change much in their effectiveness) what if instead of only physical or now only cold damage, each wolf did a different damage type. So 1 wolf does fire damage, one does cold damage, one does lightning damage, one does poison damage, and one does magic damage. That would be pretty cool, I think.

Oh well. Never gonna happen.

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I think this is the key, Necros only spend 40 pts on summons and save the rest of their points for more powerful spells…

A necromancer’s skeletons are absolute GARBAGE if you only put 1-pt into raise skele and skele mastery… You either max those skills completely, or you don’t - simple as that…

Summon druids seem hell-bent to spend every single skill point they have on pets… I think this is a newb trap… The druid summons are the only skills in game that benefit from “soft skill points”.

Druid summons are the perfect example of a “one point wonder”. Put one point in a grizzly bear, and suddenly the damage of ALL your summons increases by 150-200% (depends on how many +skills you have). That’s a very, very efficient way to spend a single skill point… Spending more skill points on summon grizzly only gives your summons +10% more damage per level, and is mathematically much less efficient…

Same can be said for Dire Wolf… Spending ONE POINT on summon dire wolf will boost the life of ALL your summons by 400-550% depending on your +skills. Again, this is a very efficient way to spend one point. Every additional point only increases the life of your summons by 25% and is a much less efficient way to spend your skill points…

These things tell me that spending 100 points on summons is going to be very inefficient… I will get most of the benefits of summons by spending only 1-pt on each of the summons… Or at most, spending 20 points on the summon that I plan to use most of the time, and 1-pt in the others…

If you consider that the summon druid benefits so much from soft points, you can think of anything with +all skills or +summoning skills to, in essence, be worth +4 to summoning skills, because 1 soft point increases four things at once: 1) your raven, 2) your spirit wolf, 3) your dire wolf, and 4) your grizzly - all at once…

I cannot stress enough how beneficial +all skills are to a summon druid. +all skills and SOFT POINTS is far more valuable for making your summons stronger than spending HARD POINTS on individual summons. A hard point will only increase one of your summon’s attributes, but a soft point will increase all 4 types of attributes at once… Does this make sense?

So the most efficient way to make a strong summoner druid pet is to put 1-pt into all the pets, then choose the pet you plan to summon most and spend 20 points on that… Then you should rely on +all skills to boost the power of that pet - spending hard points on the other pets is a waste of points… Now that ravens have been buffed, it amight also be worth putting more point into raven too… but putting 60 pts into wolves and bear is a waste of your points mate - these are single-target meat shields only, you need to spend points on AoE skills… Poison creeper and rabies fill this position best, but other druid skills could work too… And this is the most important skill that I think Blizzard need to buff to make the summon druid viable.

Summon Druid badly needs:

  • Better AoE from poison creeper (corpse explosion effect would solve everything).
  • A source of crushing blow for bosses - druid pets need CB to be viable for boss killing.

Hopefully these concepts make sense to other druids planning to build a summon druid because they are important… I am just as frustrated as others about the state of summon druids - but the answer is complex…

I’ll leave two more points about druid pets:

  1. druid pets get +all resistance per level… the maxes out at 85% at level 18 for all summons - worth remembering.
  2. the website is out of date now, but there is a very good druid pet calculator here: http://
    tph.tuwien.ac.at/~gottwald/druid_pet_calculator.html you can use that to understand how putting skill points into your pets works…
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No one I am aware of wants to dump 60 points into summoning to get a single grizzly.

Yes, the 1 point wonders are nice meat shields for wind druids. Even shapeshifting to a degree.

There is a reason why almost no one plays summoning druids. There is no damage or utility in the tree. It is utterly pitiful. Thanks for acknowledging this and then proceeding to suggest that it’s fine the way it is…

Prayer gets soft points for synergies, when is the last time you saw a pally running around using Meditation aura? :rofl:

Yes, we are thinking the same, and it is just hard to make a pure summon druid strong (with balance changes), without also indirectly making wind/fire/SS druids stronger (because they also benefit a lot from summons)…

So yeah, think we need to buff summon skills that are not very valuable to other druid types… Or create a new summoning skill that only makes sense for a summon druid to invest in heavily…

I call B.S. on this idea. Fire is the most common, no doubt in my mind.

You find your first fire immune in… the second zone of normal, Act I (Bishibosh). By the end of nightmare it is about 1/3 of monsters are now immune to fire because of class type. By the end of Hell it roughly 50%, maybe higher.

Cold immunes feels like it is between 25% and 40% in Hell. Lightning immune is more rare than both, with physical immunes being rather uncommon (ghosts mainly, and a handful of others), and magic immune being by far the least common (unravellers in act 2 and 3, some animal bases in the temples of act 3, etc.)

I personally do not mind the immunities because I find it to be more fun to play in a well-rounded group online with other people. Unfortunately, this is a rare occurrence :frowning:

On topic: The devs did say they wanted to address “damage output” for the druid summons, but I have not seen that. Changing the smallest damage on that tree to be cold instead of physical… does not “address” the problems.

Making ravens do more damage, act aggressively, and require spamming… does… address it, albeit poorly. Lowering the raven damage back down… reverts any slight improvement that was made.

I call it slight because I personally will not spam ravens nor enjoy that playstyle. I saw that in a recent MedianXL patch a few years ago with a necro “summoner” just killing things with a temporary summon thing which was really just repurposed crows. It feels like a caster, but weaker. Homing projectiles that stay around until they hit things are neat… but not as neat as actually dealing decent damage a different way.

At the end of day only DPS matters. What does it matter if summoning positively affects shapeshifting or elemental? It’s not like shapeshifting is any good currently and wind druids aren’t exactly meta…