Fix Vengeance Please!

General Discussion
21

I don’t see running conversion as a solution. Vengeance already can’t be maxed out from it’s synergies, and conversion has trash % to convert on lvl 1, and its duration is trash regardless of lvl. Sure, you could run skiller grand charms alongside your other + to skills gear to buff this, but I think that’s far from a solution to the problems of the build. Also, Conversion doesn’t give you an AR boost, which makes it miss a lot, and xp (and to the best of my knowledge, Magic find as well) calculations from a converted monster slain by opposing monsters aren’t included, theyre treated as summons, not enemies with drop tables. So in effect they’re revives that after awhile turn around and attack you. Also, elite packs can’t be converted, so the most dangerous packs that you’d want to target, this solution doesn’t work at all. Conversion itself needs it’s own rework for those reasons.

I don’t mean this to be insulting, but, you’re basically saying “oh yeah, vengeance sucks, so use this other crappy skill to increase your survivability from mobs, lessen your drops and xp, then go back to the other crappy skill to kill enemies.”

Both need to be reworked.

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22

venegence is really just a 1 point way to deal with immunes as a zealot like berserk is for barb. its not really a main attack skill

23

Areas like Act 2 Tombs with skeletons or flayer jungle with lot of enemies is pretty bad to clear.

I think if they added some mechanic like martial assassin has with charges.

Every third Vengeance hit does AoE damage in area like Fireball or Glacial spike spells do. Fireball+Glacial spike effect animation can be re-used for this 3rd hit… maybe Static field animation for lightning damage part.
Charges will never run out of time if Vengeance skill is available.

Style of play will be the same: just press attack nonstop. And it automatically counts: 1st hit, 2nd hit, 3rd hit release AoE dmg.

24

As it stands right now, yes, because it needs to be fixed…which is the title of this discussion… The fact conviction exists, and there are so many synergies for it to boost it’s elemental damage would suggest it never was intended to be a 1-point wonder. It’s not the only skill that has problems like that, but there were a lot more before recent patches, new runewords, and bug fixes.

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25

Some AOE in terms of chance to proc other skills would be cool, I feel as though that might be a little overkill of a rework until they merely allow off weapon ED/raw damage like grief to effect vengeance. I see the problems with vengeance much like the fixed problem that transformed druids used to have with IAS, in that IAS was only able to only be effected from on weapon and no other sources. If it turns out the skill is still underperforming as a single target melee build as it was designed, then add functionality. Martial arts asn in contrast was designed to be aoe, vengeance wasn’t. It would be nice if they kept it in it’s original design function, but merely made it viable.

26

… really? i play fury druid… i don’t even HAVE an option to bypass physical immunes.

and you guys are complaining about yours…

rabies and fireclaws damage are laughable

wolf and bear druid DESPERATELY could use a 1 point wonder way bypass physical immunes instead of relying on things like lawbringer or an act 3 fire merc to kill them and enchant your 1 point summons to deal fire damage

despite your personal options… NOT every skill was “designed” to be a skill you “max”.
synergies did not exist when d2 was made, they were patched in. in i think… 1.10? or maybe 1.09, don’t quite remember. also… conversion exists. dont even TRY to pretend every skill is a skill designed to be maxed

look at berserk, it lowers your defense to zero, paladin already has fire light and cold aura he can use to enchant wep damage with zeal, if u don’t want to use any of those… you have your one point vengence… with no downside.

you need to quit your complaining about this. paladin literally has the best options of ANY melee character in the game to bypass immunes.

2 Likes
27

this thread isnt about 1 point wonders… its about using vengeance as the main skill smh.
nerf the first point if that even matters. But make it scale better if you invest 100+ points on it -.-

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28

Precisely. D2 isn’t the same thing as LOD, and LOD pre 1.10 isn’t the same as OG LOD, and none of those is D2R either.

The evolution of this game is what this post is asking for. I think it’s silly how some people just want the same game from 20 years ago when damn near every implementation and expansion of content, character, and itemization diversity on the game has improved it and made it more enjoyable.

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29

TL;DR: you’re silly.

You can tell me not to complain all you want, but this isn’t complaining, this is a critique of what would improve the game, just like your whataboutisms on unrelated skills to this post, the only difference between the points i’m bringing up is I am attempting to specifically address the downfalls of vengeance as being a viable skill to build around, which is what the point of this post is…

Also, i’m not saying there isn’t a place for 1-point wonders, nor am I saying that every skill is “designed to be maxed”, but it’s clear vengeance WAS INTENDED FOR THAT EXACTLY once the implementation of synergies was introduced. It’s clear that the functionality of vengeance with the amount of synergies it has was intended to be made viable as a build option. As it stands it isn’t viable, which again, is the intention of this post. IE: Frenzy can be a 1-point wonder for a throw barb, but it still has an entire build around it, making it viable as both a 1-point wonder and a “max” skill build. You aren’t wrong in your use case of vengeance as a 1-point wonder, but that’s not what this post is arguing needs to be fixed on vengeance.

Now to address your whataboutism argument “stop complaining about this problem when theres these other problems also exist”. I am not sure if you knew this, but it is possible in life to address more than one problem at a time, especially when theres, i don’t know, a whole group of people to work on said problems, and develop how those problems are resolved, maybe something like a “dev team”.

Why you’re silly:

  1. Conversion is hardly used, even as a 1-point wonder, primarily because it has large detriments to a players ability to gain experience, it lowers your drops, and it doesn’t have synergies that would improve it’s use case scenarios (IE: a means to increase the time an enemy is effected by conversion time from a synergy would be great.) Should it have such a synergy? Maybe, Maybe not. Regardless, if it was changed to allow for it to be a skill that a character can build around, it would allow for more build diversity and playstyle as well as build choice. None of which is about vengeance, but is still a valid point to make, just doesn’t make much sense to put on a post about vengeance, does it?

  2. In terms of Berserk, it’s damn near a moot point that your defense is lowered to zero because the innate hit points per level a barbarian gets per lvl on top of battle orders makes your life pool so large that even when you do get hit you hardly ever go into hit recovery. This isn’t true for every enemy in the game and every use case like Ubers/bosses, but it’s a niche build that does niche things very well, almost like that build has a unique PLAYSTYLE that DIFFERENTIATES it from OTHER OPTIONS. Battle Orders also is a synergy for Berserk, it’s almost like the game devs saw how beneficial battle orders was to a berserk barbarian to the point where they implemented the use of that skill to benefit the entirety of the build. Which again, is what this post is intending to address the lack of with specifically the skill vengeance.

  3. You DO have a means to deal with phys immunes, it’s the Unique Grand Charm Bone Break. Aside from using that, do rabies and fireclaws need improvement? maybe. Even so, they are both much more viable than vengeance is, regardless of their need or not need of improvement, it’s not really relevant to a post about vengeance.

  4. Fury is a viable build in comparison to vengeance outside of those relatively rare physically immune monsters. There are far more Fury Druids than vengeance paladins, because Fury is much more viable because of its attack speed, its innate synergies with lycanthropy/werewolf. Which is 100% a synergy by design even if the tooltip doesn’t indicate it, due to the phrasing “in werewolf form”, this implies that from inception, even before supplemental synergies were introduced to other characters in the game, that characters were intended to have skills interact and effect each other to have a diversity of playstyle and flavor accessible to the players choice and desired skill use. Which again, is what this post is intending to incite discussion as to how that may be done, specifically to improve the skill vengeance.

  5. The number of build options that one character has does not negate the valid argument that it should have another option, nor does it negate your point that 1-point wonders would be welcome on builds that are lacking the utilities they can provide. On the contrary, it should be that characters with less options should have more builds made viable, and skills should have the utility for 1-point wonder use cases if the player does not wish to “max” that skill out. Much how if I want to eat spaghetti for dinner, someone saying “just have chicken nuggets” isn’t a solution to meeting what I would prefer. Vengeance isn’t Zeal, singular elemental auras aren’t vengeance. Vengeance is a melee build that utilizes conviction. Zeal + element aura isn’t the same, doesn’t play the same, it’s not spaghetti, it’s chicken nuggets. If i were to make your argument against you, why do you play Fury druid when you can just play zeal? Oh, right, because you don’t want chicken nuggets, you want steak.

1 Like
30

your grasping at straws at this point…

paladin has vengeance

which is better than barb’s berserk
which is better than druid’s nothing

yet you still complain yours isn’t “good enough”

its not GOING to be good enough for people like you… it never will.
not matter what they do.

paladin needs NERFS, not buffs.

holy shield need to lose the 1-2 frame block and lower it by a single frame
it needs to lose the MASSIVE defense boost, and MASSIVE boost to block rate for something more reasonable… and it needs its duration extended because casting skills like it over and over are stupid.

also … FYI… i have played a vengeance build in POD, with a melee splash jewel, its still not “great”

what ti does do is allow you to bypass immunes. something which your LUCKY to get.

also… “bone break”???
you must be as ignorant as blizzard if you think that’s usable, on druid

95% resist? ROFL
u should be aware that. unlike fire, light, cold and poison there is no “facet” that lower physical resist… there isn’t even a piece of gear that does so.

there are THREE skills in the game that do so… amp damage, decrepify
and barbs new version of grim ward, and unless your have one of those skills, bone break will have no effect

this means that unlike with every other element (except magic which alone shares the same issue). that resists STAYS at 95%

the enchant from an act 3 merc alone deals more damage than 1/20th of my physical damage.

stop trying to talk about builds u dont understand… it just makes u look ignorant.

and yes… i have PERSONALLY TRIED vengeance max BEFORE.

its NOT very good. but thats not the point… the point is it does what its supposed to do
and it does it the best between itself and berserk, and fury’s completely non-existent skill because we dont even HAVE an option.

also if u think rabies is viable… your off your rocker.

you can take a max - poison build… greif, bramble, trang gloves, arash 2x bk or soj, +3 SS
the best possible gear to make poison better.

your basic attacks with greif will kill stuff faster than rabies. because of the duration

fireclaws has immunes, its a skill that isnt just taking % of weapon damage like vengeance is as well as giving ti to multiple elements allowing to bypass literally any immune in the game, and fireclaws was also HEAVILY NERFED in a recent patch, losing about 50% of its damage total damage output, as well as losing at least 2 frames on attack.

please stop trying to talk about druid as if you know its issues.

bone break is WORTHLESS,

vengeance is amazing for any zealot that has to deal with an immune, i would GLADLY take a wolf form copy paste of vengeance instead of fireclaws.

vengeance is not a skill that is designed to be be used as your main attack skill

DEAL WITH IT.

you’re like the people complaining about enigma in PVM

31

I disagree with you.

32

Even with metamorph fire claws still sucks.

If the old hustle existed you couldve made a metamorph/eth earth shifter fireclaws/fury druid.

33

That’s how it’s supposed to work - vengeance operates in the same way as enhanced damage does, but adds elemental damage instead.

The mana cost, and it not working with “Damage +” makes this skill quite prohibitive though.

1 Like
34

earth shifter does not work, or at least it did not work in LOD, becuase of coding issue making the procs interrupt your own fury becuase fury, is coded incorrectly and is interuptable. feral rage is also coded incorrectly, as it does not match the tooltip at all.

that could have been addressed with the FHR changes though. i haven’t tested it after that
same big that interrupted fury with a nix firestorm proc

crainum basher on the other hand… is totally hell viable, and actually very good, not QUITE as strong as death decap for fury but i would say its arguably 2nd best, best unique wep for fury hands down, after the attack speed change

35

Druid spells that are ctc do not interrupt anymore. This includes the firestorm proc on phoenix which is why its one of the best melee rws in the game now.

36

what? there were whole guilds dedicated to this build. This build was very popular in 1.09.
USED AS A MAIN SKILL. PVP and PVM.

It was rekt by synergies … other builds were just stronger.

Anyways i dont get why you would be against more variety of viable builds.
Does druid need more variety of viable builds? Sure it does.
Should blizzard tone down 1 point wonders like holy shield or “vengeance”? sure … but again… make them be viable and scale better if you dump more points in them.

Currently paladin has like 2 working MELEE builds. zeal fant + smite fant. I apologize if i missed any other (i just woke up).
Should there be a build that utilizes Might better? Yes.
When fant is better than all aura for melee. Is there really a choice? when one skill is far far better? I believe 1.09 was just far better balanced.

3 Likes
37
  • Remove or replace attack speed on Fanaticism aura.
  • Delete conversion. (byeee)
  • Create a new active buff skill in it’s place called “Holy/Sacred/Sanctified Weapon” that is an offensive counterpart to HS.
  • Give this new buff skill the attack speed stat and another offensive stat. Perhaps “- enemy defense” and replace that stat on conviction for smth else?
  • Allow only 1 use of an “Holy buff skill” at the time(like BoS/Fade).

Now you’ve added choice, balance and better weapon support for 2 handers as a Paladin.

I have lots of ideas, that’s the reason I usually play my own modded version. :innocent:
Would prefer multiplayer for the party experience but Blizzard being too slow and poor at game changes is holding me back from enjoying MP. Sad.

1 Like
38

I made a vengeance paladin playthrough to lvl 70 in hell, then abandoned it.

Actually its single damage is pretty nice even with crap weapon. But only because of Conviction pairing. Without conviction the damage is very low. With Conviction its like Tripled!
I kinda enjoyed smacking monsters one by one. But i find the big Cold length on vengeance useless for single monster affected. Therefore my AoE idea.

Btw. in recent d2R patches they made single attacks less interruptible, so its much better. Some kind of FHR or interuption immunity for brief period of time or something. Works well for Vengeance style.

Well I still think AoE hit in lets say 3 yards every 3rd hit will be very nice addition.

If that doesnt suit most of players, then let Vengeance elemental damage Deadly strike! (I would advice the same for Sacrifice skill (self harm dmg remain without deadly strike) ) And increase its %ar to 15% per level. Its enough. Conviction is enough for high chance to hit.

39

I think its a valid argument that vengeance could have AOE. a single target damage of elemental damage is kind of odd flavor wise. The Holy auras do that + the bop it has within range to deal with those problems, but it doesn’t have all elemental damage types. It’s just as it is mechanically is represented, it’s a single target damage attack.

Deadly strike, Crushing blow, and open wounds still have an effect on vengeance, but the problem is that how it’s calculated is that all of the effects of crushing blow/deadly strike/open wounds only effects the base physical damage from the weapon. Vengeance’s damage multiplier on the skill is only converted toward it’s elemental damage, which doesn’t apply to those effects, pretty much making the things that allow for single target damage melee on any other ability very lackluster in comparison. If that damage multiplier on those effects was based on the +% dmg from vengeance, but didn’t effect the elemental damage the multiplier is producing, then it would be on par with other single target damage melee skill any other ability has, while still allowing vengeance to be that elemental damage side step from the physical component. This is how berserk is calculated as well, which is why berserk isn’t a great boss killing build, but there’s very few high magic resistance/immune monsters in comparison to other elements that aren’t bosses that inhibit it’s viability outside of boss killing. Even if a quarter or half the %dmg multiplier from vengeance was applied to those effects it would be much more viable.

I think that would be the least amount of change necessary to make it viable, not that more change wouldn’t be necessary, but that’s what i would like to see as a start. It’s a skill that takes far too much investment to create a build around for such little positive use case.