Barbarian Combat Skills rework by Zax

General Discussion
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Hey, I have been working on my D2R mod and just finished rework of all skills. I would like to present my changes as suggestions what I imagine blizzard could do with skills to makde them better.

Barbarian class has many issues I tried to fix with various modifications. There are too weak skills, Barbarian often suffer with not having enough skill points for certain builds as synergies are made in a way that you have to invest in a lot of skills. There are issues with equip being focused too much on survival vs caster classes who draw power mostly from skills and not directly weapons like Barbarian. There are also skills completly not worth leveling up. I adress a lot of it with my suggestion and I will write short note under every skill explaining changes and reason behind them.

My goal was to made Barbarion more usefull, have more viable builds and to be fun to play as I think he struggles the most in solo play so he definitely need some love. Feel free to comment my changes of course :slight_smile: I want to see feedback.

I am starting with COMBAT SKILLS and Masteries and warcries will follow in future.

Barbarian Combat Skills

Bash

  • Mana cost increased from 2 to 5
  • Attack Ratting synergy removed and Attack Ratting per level increased from 5% to 15%
  • Bash has +10% damage synergies from Stun, Concentrate and Berserk
  • Bash has now +flat fire damage (also affected by synergies)

NOTE: Currently is Bash quite weak skill and synergies 5% ED and 5% AR from Stun and Concentarte are weak too. I doubled damage synergy from Stun and added two damage synergies. Attack ratting is improved directly in skill to avoid investing points elsewhere just for AR boost. I tried various modifications of +flat damage but some stuff simply didnt work because of how are skill functions hardcoded. So I decided to add also Flat Fire damage. It would probably make seense to rename skill to something like “Flaming Fist” :slight_smile: . Mana cost was also increased because skill is more powerfull and has magic fire damage.

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Double Swing

  • +% Enhanced damage synergy from Bash removed
  • +15% Enhanced damage at level 1
  • +15% Enhanced damage per skill level

NOTE Another weaker skill. Double swing is great at start but later on it fall of with behind Frenzy. Also synergy from Bash take away a lot of skill points to add some damage to the skill so now skill level up enhanced damage on its own and doesnt need synergy.

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Leap

  • Can be used in town
  • Fixed 175% Leap speed changed to +75% leap speed at level 1 and +20% leap speed per skill level
  • Leap has halved knockback radius

NOTE: Leap is usualy not skill to level up because its already great with one skill points and +all skills. So I made change which can be seen as nerf but with enough skill points is skill buffed and you can leap faster with it. Because speed of animation was increased I halved knockback radius as compensation. You can see in short clip below how skill looks in current version of game with same speed compared to being maxed with some all skills.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l1UCC7uVZ9g

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Leap Attack

  • Leap attack always hits
  • Fixed 175% Leap speed changed to +140% leap speed at level 1 and +5% leap speed per skill level
  • Area damage effect improved as it doesnt work well currently and range increased
  • Additional +10% damage synergy from Battle Orders

NOTE:Leap Barbarian is fun build but sadly quite weak, biggest issue is that area damage doesnt work very reliable and I think I fixed/improved it with different setting/mechanic. I also made skill to always hit, because it doesnt feel very good to miss as attack takes more time than other attack skills or if you use slow weapon on top of that. Area damage also deserved buff so I added synergy from Battle orders. I wanted start skill from 75% leap speed instead of fixed 175% but it looked so silly as Barbarian was leaping like 3 seconds :rofl: . So it starts at 140% and increase every level by 5%. Maybe I made range on area effect too big so it could be probably lowered.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R22UyFQ6QnI

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Double Throw

NOTE: No changes made to Double throw as I think skill is fine as it is now.

Stun

  • Base Attack ratting changed from 15% to 20 with additional +15% attack ratting every level
  • Attack Ratting synergy from Concentrate removed
  • New enhanced damage synergies +20% from Bash, Concentrate and War Cry

NOTE: Currently there is really no reason why use Stun because War cry does it better and in radius around you. So I decided to improve attack ratting with Stun and added 3 synergies increasing enhanced damage. With this is skill good choice as main attack and can compete with Concentrate or Berserk.

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Concentrate

  • Enhanced damage synergy from Bash increased from 5% to 10%
  • Enhanced damage per level increased from 5% to 10%

NOTE: Concentrate has rather weak increase of Enhanced damage as single target skill so I made it twice as strong.

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Frenzy

  • Removed enhanced damage synergy from Taunt
  • Double swing enhanced damage synergy increased from 8% to 16%

NOTE: I Only made synergy from Double Swing strogner to compensate for loss of Taunt synergy. Taunt didnt really make any sense as synergy to Frenzy. Frenzy build now need less skill points because of this change.

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Whirlwind

  • Whirlwind has now +7% enhanced damage per level instead of +5%
  • Mana cost at level 1 decreased from 12,5 to 6

NOTE: I never honestly liked Whirlwind skill from multiple reasons. One of them is very high mana cost early on when Barbarian doesnt have a lot of mana. So I decreased cost. I also decided to increase damage little bit from 5% to 7% to compensate last changes from Blizzard. If anyone have some suggestion what Whirlwind need improved, let me know.

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Berserk

NOTE: No changes made to Berserk as I think skill is fine as it is now.

6 Likes
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Barbs need a reason , a skill dedicated to 2h weapons… the Game and your mod gives Zero reason to use 2 handers …

Theres frenzy/double trow / double swing and yes … Ww that require 2 weapons or in the case of ww it’s just sooooo much better using 2 weapons rather than just 1 Big weapon…

  • Stun suks . The skill is mechanically useless . Bcuz the CC part is aplied 1 by 1… meanwhile Warcry does aOE instantly…and if it hits hard … well You just kill the monster with the hit , so the stun part becomes irrelevant, then concĂ©ntrate and berzerk become just better and more logical to use over stun … (that thing is useless…).

Imo delete it. Place a skill requiring a 2handed weapon in it’s place (love the idea of cleave) . Then You could have Niche skills for all tipes of weapons : 1 handed, dual wield , trow and finally … 2h weapons.

3 Likes
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But this is not because of skills, its becsuse of majority two handed weapons suck in comparison to one handed. Same issues have staves vs orbs so i think way to deal with this would be umproving two handed weapons in general.

About the barb, i am helping to two handed weapons in in masteries. Both spear and polearms have special bonus as synergy to certain skill.

I honestly didnt figure out out to separate one handed from two handed axes swords and maces. I tried to create masteries improving both one and two handed differently but didnt manage to make it work.

I dont think it suck anymore because now it doesnt do just stun, its regular attack skill with high damage.

Well i am not opposed to this. I didnt want to completely replace multiple skills bjt i will think about this idea, its a good one.

Could be maybe zeal like skill. Or the cleav yeah, its just a lot more complicated to mod splash dmg, i have never done it before :slight_smile:

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Currently the only issue the barb has is with 2 handed weapons when using whirlwind.

No there isn’t, the weakness is player base knowledge and lack of skill development.

This is only a noob problem. Experienced barb players don’t worry much about defense. If you have a hard time surviving with a barbarian, it just means you suck at building and playing the character.

We call them 1 point wonders. Such as Bash, Stun, Con and Zerk.

You confuse your incompetence developing and playing the character with the actual character.

No it isn’t, you just don’t know how, where and when to use it. Bash is a 1 point wonder.

No it’s not, you just don’t know how, where and when to use it.

a 1 point wonder.

You just don’t know when and where to use it.

Yes there is, it is a very powerful skill for very specific monsters and situations. Again, you just don’t know where and when to use it.

Anyone who thinks Con is weak, is actually describing their own skill.

Taunt is an awesome synergy and complimentary skill for Frenzy. You just don’t know how, when and where to use them together.

It’s arguably the most powerful skill in the game, for sure top 3.

Not true, you just don’t have the knowledge, skill and experience with 2 handers.

Basically you’re making changes in your mod because you suck playing the barbarian.

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Can you please explain in more detail this statement? I’m actually intrigued.
Also, in order to educate and enlighten the people on this forum, please substantiate your statements like:

Also this one regarding stun:

Or

Or how 2H weapons are actually on par with 1H ones

Please take the opportunity to educate all us noobs who actually agree with Zax’s proposals.

Looking forward for your precious input and sharing your in depth knowledge of game mechanics to us!

2 Likes
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Make a hardcore Bash barb, only use it and go from act 1 Normal to Hell Baal. It’s only a 20 hour journey for inexperienced barb players. Then you’ll learn how the skill shines.

Same, make a hardcore Stun barb and complete the game only using that attack skill.

They were. In D2 LoD eBoTD TM was better than double Grief if the player knew how to to whirlwind effectively. Grief cannot kill bosses faster than eBoTD TM and after clvl 95 bosses are the only monsters that give valid experience for leveling. For Grief to really shine it needs to be complimented with Fortitude, where as Enigma compliments eBoTD TM perfectly eBoTD TM is hands down the best endgame weapon.

I did.

You confuse game mechanics with skill.

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No, there are issues as described. If you compare barbarian to different classes. There is reason that barbarian is probably hardest class to level up.

It has nothing to do with player base. If you look at some skill they are simply too weak and thats why almost nobody play with them. Certain builds also require too many skill points to invest and a lot of them is basicly msut have if you want to have good Barbarian.

Nothing to do with experience or being noob. If anything, its noob comment on your part as you try to insult instead of actualy present arguments. Most Barbarian builds of course cares about defense. I dont think you understood my point at all. Melee characters struggle a lot vs casters in comparison because their power mainly goes from weapons, not skills +there are other weapons mods they need to be viable. That results in less space for using for example interesting unique items with more utility than raw dmg and with not being able to use certain equip, because it would impact survival when fighting mobs.

And thats the whole reason why I said, certain skills are one point wonder and it makes no sense to level them up. Like Battle command for example or several others.

Not sure why you mention those 4 you named tho. Bash and Stun certainly are not one point wonders because nobody use those skills. Both are simply quite bad skills in current form. Concentrate and Berserk are not one point wonder skill either as leveling them up is definitely worth doing. Sure, they are usable as one point but usualy as situational skill only. That doesnt make them “1 point wonder” skills.

I play Barbarian a lot, dotn worry. I am currently playing him with changes I made and so far its amazing improvement to his class. I didnt share all skill changes yet tho so more will come.

I think it is weak skill. Please explain to me how it is one point wonder skill.

Yes and thats not good skill deisgn. Thats why I made it better as you level it up.

Pure trolling. Currently its not good build at all for various reasons I explained. Please show me your Leap attack build who can clear game well.

Instead of trolling, explain those situations. Kind of funny tho, I dont think I have ever seen anyone using that skill. Also I checked multiple builds, nobody suggest to use that skill anywhere. I wonder why. I guess you have some hidden ancestrall knowledge nobody knwos about.

Another troll attempt. I didnt say its weak, I said it has rather weak increase of enhanced damage, why didnt you quote whole sentence? It deserve buff for one target skill, that doesnt mean its weak as skill.

Please show me your build playing Frenzy with usage of Taunt. I am very interested to see that. But I think its another troll attempt. I have checked frenzy builds and didnt see anywhere suggesting to using ti as active skill. If you really care about having Taunt, barbarian merc who constantly cast it is there for you.

“You just don’t know how, when and where to use them together.” your words, explain when and where then you use it as frenzy barb.

I didnt say it isnt. I just never liked it becuase of how skill works. So ok sure, its powerfull skill.

How many Barbarian builds use two handed weapons then? You loose a lot by not using second one handed weapon or shield.

No, I dont have problem to play barbarian, he just deserve changes to be better balanced class with good and fun to use skills worth leveling up.

Dude your opinions are kind of weird and totaly different than how is barbarian being played by rest of player base. I dont know if you are just missguided or trolling because you did that in a lot of your posts in past. Its really hard to take some of your statement seriously as something usefull for discussion.

2 Likes
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Its your claim that its good, show us and educate us. No build guides suggest to level up with those skills and its for a reason. I dont think you even actualy play the barbarian and with those amazing skills you talk about.

1 Like
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You fail to comprehend basic English. I said play the skill to learn about it, Noob.

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I dont need to play it to know skill need improvement or how it is bad. I already did. Its you who do not have experience with playing with those skills while you insults others who already know how bad they are.

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Thanks for the update, Noob, who has no experience using the skill so therefore has no valid opinion of the skill.

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Yes you explained yourself very well and since you are here only to troll, you go to ignore list. Enjoy.

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Give it fireball splash effect on melee hit, just physical damage. Probably how PD2 did it. Or, dragon tail.
:fire:/:dragon:

:rofl::rofl::rofl:

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yeah but the issue is that i dont know how to make it only for two handed weapons. I can do some deep changes to make it work but I fear that old saves wont work with some changes.

I could mabe add splash damage on two handed weapons in general, but that has effect on all classes merc included and can bring new issues with certain skills.

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Great work man. Would be fun to test.

1 Like
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Tie it into Bash/stun, another option that could be viable would be for 2 handed mastery points, you could increase IAS as a passive bonus, requiring less IAS from gear to hit the 4 frame BP on ww or other skills.

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Well I didnt post Masteries section yet but I have this instead of Increase Stamina skill:

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3 Likes
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Overall cool changes/discussion. Neat idea to make Bash and Stun worth putting points into/usable. I do feel like Stun may have too much overlap as a damage skill with Conc and with War Cry, though. I guess your version of Stun would be like two sides of the same coin with Conc - Conc uses defense bonus + uninterruptability to reduce incoming damage from the target, while Stun uses, well Stun. I could see the Stun approach being useful if you purposely attack each monster in the group once to apply the stun, then rotate back through to keep them stunned as you kill, whereas Conc bonus is to the player so the defense bonus works against all monsters.

I think there may be a bit of semantics going on here.

Taunt is super useful to pull in ranged monsters. They abandon their ranged attacks and come use (usually weaker) melee attacks that put them in range of your melee attacks. That said, I would agree it’s currently a “1 point wonder”/pre-req for Battle Cry, so as it sits now, the only reason to put more than 1 hard point into it is the Frenzy damage bonus.

I personally feel skills like Stun is not a 1 point wonder, but rather just a pre-req that’s required to move on. Bash is sort of a grey area b/c it’s useful early game and as a DS synergy, but after that I consider it more of a pre-req than a 1 point wonder, since I never go back to use it once I’m later game. Conc in most builds is a pre-req, but it is used as the main attack in a viable build, so it has it’s place, I guess, but I agree the main downside is the slow 1 enemy at a time, so giving it more bonus to make it better at single target makes sense. Zerk same deal - some builds put more than 1 point in it, but often it’s used purely to counteract PIs, so 1 point wonder seems most common.

That said, your changes/point isn’t really about the usefulness of the skill itself, more the reason why it specifically should buff frenzy specifically, which I agree doesn’t seem to really make sense. Therefore I think your change of moving that bonus to DS to reduce point spend Frenzy barb has to do makes a lot of sense.

Endugu, I’m never sure how to take your posts, honestly. As another barb main, I see you do have good advice/strategy in some posts, and I’ve found some of your eBotD Thundermaul Diablo kill videos fun, I recall one where you found a Zod off him. But you also come off as just too condescending for useful conversation a lot of the time, which makes it tough for people to value your input when you immediately put them on the defensive. You very well may have great strategies for doing things that aren’t commonly known or put into guides, but given that fact, it seems more productive to explain or show them rather than just call people noobs and bad, offering no proof. I write this making the assumption that you are not trying to troll, and therefore am merely offering suggestions of how the discussion could be more useful for those of us interested in learning and discussing Barbarian play tactics. One side saying “you suck noob” doesn’t really serve that purpose. Even if you do have more skill, if you don’t offer proof or reasoning, then the comment doesn’t really add anything, in my opinion.

Also the fact that Barb is “capable” in a vacuum isn’t really the point. Yes with endgame gear they excel at certain situations, but in other situations they (and other melee characters) are just needlessly behind the progression curve, so posts like this one seek to make playing it more enjoyable and on par with what some of the other classes enjoy.

Just my two cents.

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Sadly , no amount of IAs allows for 4fpa with 2 handers (not counting swords) . 5fpa is the max

Unless that is looked at by zax .

If granting 2 handers aOE proves too dificult. What about giving a skill damage bonus when using said skill with a 2habded weapon ?

Bash, conc/ ww etc…: +25% damage when used with a 2habder…

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Interesting. I like the concept a lot actually. I am curious how the scaling works, but fear the synergies are spread out all over the place, seems like it would be hard to balance it without homogenizing the one handed and 2 handed specifications. If you wanted to benefit from all of them.

Maybe 1 hand mastery/2 hand mastery/ Weapon spcialization

Where 2 hand would get more ias than 1 hand to make up for the lack of the 4 frame WW bp.

Are you removing critical strike entirely from the weapon based mastery? Maybe it’s a 1 point wonder with how you have it setup?

I can’t begin to break it down with how builds currently work, are you trying to eliminate some gear choices and opt for mastery instead?

It makes my brain hurt.