If we had these changes and then they buffed Were damage skills it could bring the end game back to normal or even higher, especially if they gave them some run/walk on Lyc. Overall better than where we are at lol.
Warren comes through to save the day 
. I never thought that me telling you about this bug in Llama’s chat would have you attack this problem lol sorry for the extra work I brought your way but it seems you kinda love this stuff lmao.
Well… maybe if they make Grief work like other melee builds then this isn’t so bad. The ITD, huge damage, 1 hander to allow shields - offset by some lost in IAS?
But this will kinda spoil the spirit of the change of course which is trying to average out all weapons…
Yeah this is true, FRW passive skill is very badly needed
No. There’s a difference between constructive feedback and toxicity. It’s sad you don’t know the difference and your parents didn’t care enough to teach you.
2 Likes
tengaku is offering constructive feedback and is pointing out truth
you are projecting your lack of parental guidance (or parents?) onto others, while also conveying condescension - i.e., TOXICITY
the person who does not know the difference between constructive feedback and toxicity is you
Please, offer actual feedback instead of policing the thread like tengaku said, this wereform change is important and BLUNT criticism is better than NONE
3 Likes
Quite honestly implementing this, giving Werewolf more skill IAS and allowing us to hit 3 FPA would be great, move FRW from feral rage to Werewolf/Werebear as passive and we are good
Thanks for taking the time to do this.
It shows quite well how hard wereforms are being nerfed for no good reason at all.
I played wolfs extensively in LoD, both vanilla and modded. They are one of my favorites in the game. I have leveled a wolf in current D2R. As long as you have a decent polearm, they still perform fine imo.
This does present the problem that these, or very fast singlehanded weapons, are your only real route through without it being painful to many players. Rather than making base speeds better for other weapons, adding sockets to many of the uniques is a better, and cleaner option in my view.
If wereforms are relagated to even 5 frame attacks at best, the class will effectively never be played again. Every single other melee class will drastically outperform them.
Most wolf characters, particularly fury builds will use 2handed weapons, leaving no source of block, and overall very low defensive values compared to the other classes.
This is why many of us are very brutish in our feedback about it. They are already hardpressed, in general to compete with Barbs, and especially Paladins late game, with very few gear options to meet these same thresholds.
Assassins are a bit different, but claw block is very, very strong, and are receiving, at minimum, QoL improvements to many melee skills.
Wolf forms and bearforms are simply being shafted to the hilt.
2 Likes
No. There’s a difference between constructive feedback and toxicity.
And there is a difference between honest feedback and toxicity. Stating, “they gave us the middle finger”, followed by listing all the points, that made us come to that conclusion, is honest feedback.
It’s sad you don’t know the difference and your parents didn’t care enough to teach you.
And this is an example of toxicity. Kaz below this post is providing another example of toxicity.
2 Likes
This would be a nerf prior to what we have always had on shapers. And shapers has always underperformed.
Mostly this was the issues:
Fireclaw: single target ar required block able attack with less dmg than fireball.
Fury: decent dmg and attack rating, but for the most part it would require to be an Uninteruptible skill to be viable. Still worse than pala smite and zeal, or barbs wirlwind etc…
Maul: always been weak, combine maul with fireclaw in pvm will slow u down since u need to stay shaped to keep maul charges, and u need like 14-16 hits before ur at max maul dmg… So yes it helps u kill 1 target at a time a little faster.
For shapers to be usable blizzard need to revert the change.
For shapers to be viable fireclaw dmg and possible ar needs a buff, fury needs to be Uninteruptible, and speedincrease cap should be raised to 200…
Raising that cap does not destroy the whole class, it just:
- allows 1 frame faster attack
- offhand ias and auras like fana etc now actually has an effect.
Here is how it should work:
Shape Formulas:
NeutralFrame(NU):
NU WereWolf: 9
NU WereBear: 10
Delay = [256x(WeaponBase) / [(weapon ias+wsm+100)xAnimRate/100]]
Anim speed = [NU x 256 / delay]
Speed increase/EIAS = If(floor[120 x ias / (120 + ias)] + skill ias + wsm;1)>200;200;floor[120 x ias / (120 + ias)] + skill ias + wsm;1) *(IAS is both wep and gear as usual formula)
FramesSerial = {256x7/[(AnimRate1 + Speed increase)/100xAnim speed]}
Frames WolfPaw = {256x13/[(AnimRate1 + Speed increase)/100xAnim speed]}- 1
Frames Biting = {256x10/[(AnimRate1 + Speed increase)/100xAnim speed]}- 1
Frames BearPaw = {256x12/[(AnimRate1 + Speed increase)/100xAnim speed]}- 1
- Fury use FramesSerial for his 4 first attacks, then WolfPaw for the last attack.
- AnimRate for Werewolf/Werebear is not listed as 256, but we use 256. AnimRate for human shape we use the listed for AnimRate and WeponBase.
Example: Assa Wielding a claw: AIA1HT1 – WeponBase(Frames pr direction) 11 – AnimRate 208.
A1/A2 - 1HS - 19 frames, 256 speed, 9 action (1 hand swing weapons)
A1/A2 - 2HS - 21 frames, 256 speed, 10 action (2 hand swing weapons)
A1/A2 - 1HT - 19 frames, 256 speed, 8 action (1 hand thrust weapons)
A1/A2 - 2HT - 23 frames, 256 speed, 9 action (2 hand thrust weapons)
A1 - H2H - 16 frames, 256 speed, 8 action (unarmed)
A1/A2 - STF - 17 frames, 256 speed, 9 action (staff)
A1 - BOW - 16 frames, 256 speed, 8 action (bow)
A1 - XBW - 20 frames, 256 speed, 10 faction (crossbow)
1 Like
And you are providing no feedback, adding nothing to either side of the argument at hand, and simply attempting to derail the thread. This is more toxic than anything said here at all.
This would be a nerf prior to what we have always had on shapers. And shapers has always underperformed.
Mostly this was the issues:
Fireclaw: single target ar required block able attack with less dmg than fireball.
Fury: decent dmg and attack rating, but for the most part it would require to be an Uninteruptible skill to be viable. Still worse than pala smite and zeal, or barbs wirlwind etc…
Maul: always been weak, combine maul with fireclaw in pvm will slow u down since u need to stay shaped to keep maul charges, and u need like 14-16 hits before ur at max maul dmg… So yes it helps u kill 1 target at a time a little faster.
For shapers to be usable blizzard need to revert the change.
For shapers to be viable fireclaw dmg and possible ar needs a buff, fury needs to be Uninteruptible, and speedincrease cap should be raised to 200…
Raising that cap does not destroy the whole class, it just:
- allows 1 frame faster attack
- offhand ias and auras like fana etc now actually has an effect.
Here is how it should work:
Shape Formulas:
NeutralFrame(NU):
NU WereWolf: 9
NU WereBear: 10
Delay = [256x(WeaponBase) / [(weapon ias+wsm+100)xAnimRate/100]]
Anim speed = [NU x 256 / delay]
Speed increase/EIAS = If(floor[120 x ias / (120 + ias)] + skill ias + wsm;1)>200;200;floor[120 x ias / (120 + ias)] + skill ias + wsm;1) *(IAS is both wep and gear as usual formula)
FramesSerial = {256x7/[(AnimRate1 + Speed increase)/100xAnim speed]}
Frames WolfPaw = {256x13/[(AnimRate1 + Speed increase)/100xAnim speed]}- 1
Frames Biting = {256x10/[(AnimRate1 + Speed increase)/100xAnim speed]}- 1
Frames BearPaw = {256x12/[(AnimRate1 + Speed increase)/100xAnim speed]}- 1
- Fury use FramesSerial for his 4 first attacks, then WolfPaw for the last attack.
- AnimRate for Werewolf/Werebear is not listed as 256, but we use 256. AnimRate for human shape we use the listed for AnimRate and WeponBase.
Example: Assa Wielding a claw: AIA1HT1 – WeponBase(Frames pr direction) 11 – AnimRate 208.
A1/A2 - 1HS - 19 frames, 256 speed, 9 action (1 hand swing weapons)
A1/A2 - 2HS - 21 frames, 256 speed, 10 action (2 hand swing weapons)
A1/A2 - 1HT - 19 frames, 256 speed, 8 action (1 hand thrust weapons)
A1/A2 - 2HT - 23 frames, 256 speed, 9 action (2 hand thrust weapons)
A1 - H2H - 16 frames, 256 speed, 8 action (unarmed)
A1/A2 - STF - 17 frames, 256 speed, 9 action (staff)
A1 - BOW - 16 frames, 256 speed, 8 action (bow)
A1 - XBW - 20 frames, 256 speed, 10 faction (crossbow)
And we are not confused, 99% of people playing diablo use a ias calculator to find their breakpoint unless its a standard setup which they either know or google easy. Saying that the formulas is confusing makes no sence, my first 20 years of diablo 2 no1 ever mentioned the formulas, i had to Google my azz off to find them prior to d2r.
Some facts:
- 200 eias cap can make 2 frame fury:
Yes, but with a low dmg crossbow, its not effective… - 200 eias cap will never give any faster fireclaw/maul attack than 3 frames.
- 200 eias cap will make assa in bear shape able to reach an teoretical 1 frame attack, but thats not an issue as it dont work on a 24 frame breakpoint system. 2 frames builds are viable and strong, but cost a lot and dragon talon is better anyway.
- early slow wepons will easier be affected by other gear ias and/or auras.
So i dont see any problem activating 200speedoncrease cap on all type of shapers. (Vampire, bone fetish as well, maby even buff their ias a little)
but warren, why are you wasting your time on this stupid crap. Go figure out the central banks and the great reset or something.
Maybe you should be evaluating fertilizer component ratios for hydroponics systems or something.
but this is more fun
Do you really think that making the wolf attack at HALF speed is a good idea? He was already really weak even with ultra high end items and now you go and nerf it to the ground, to a level that is not playable in hell? The only answer is that you have NEVER played the game and try to make changes even without giving a thought or asking us, who have keep the game alive for 20 years.
At the start of d2r, by mistake, you did a nice change, by removing max ias breakpoint, allowing fury druid to get to faster frames per attack. Even with that speed fury druid is weak, it’s VERY weak. With no decent way of dealing with physical inmunes or killing groups or enemies.
1 Like
While this is great feedback its fully possible in live today to reach 5/5/5/5/8 on a upped ribcracker to stalagmite with just a shael in the weapon.
Are the fpa values you listed just the last fpa on the 5 hits?
if its not that is still much slower then live.
This, iirc, can lead to crashes. I could be remembering things wrong but in a mod that was well known, Sins eventually started crashing the game…it may have been the slew of procs they were getting though…it has been quite some time. Am pretty sure we had to slow it down…kickers…something…blargh i forget the exact details.
You do know that a lot of people that wrote the wereform calculators do this kinda thing for fun, right?
But no, don’t add anything meaningful and just underhandedly crap on someone’s efforts.
What that I pointed out that you have done nothing to talk about anything to do with the topic?
1 Like
I can see the you put a lot of work into this, so I feel kinda bad having to tell you that you’ve really missed the mark.
Your proposal both nerfs existing endgame options (by making the current breakpoints either unreachable or only reachable by compromising on gear choices to gain more IAS) and also fails to accomplish Blizz’s stated goal of unifying manform and wereform speeds for new players. On top of that, it creates a new “quirky” hapax IAS calculation as a replacement for the old “quirky” hapax IAS calculation Blizz wanted to be rid of.
My strong preference here would be to to just leave it alone and keep the traditional wereform IAS calculations. Barring that, I think the cleanest solution is to compute the manform IAS calculation and the traditional wereform IAS calculation in parallel, and then use the result with lower fpa. That would unify manform and wereform speeds early in the game – which is apparently very important to Blizzard – while leaving the current endgame options untouched.
I also had a topic re: this issue < Shape attack speeds issue - Not working as intended >
I am in the process of reviewing all the issues i raised and then adding 2 cents to similar topic’s.
In this regard - in the PTR you have nerfed shapers. this thread is looking for a compromise. At the end of the day regardless of the net outcome of either the PTR or the proposal in this thread, EVERY PLAYER can reasonably ACKNOWLEDGE that shapers are very weak in terms of PvM. Therefore, its not enough to maintain the status quo (if the intention was to buff) and thus you should consider an additional attack damage increase per level to fury (this is a compromise).
Got a related question, did anyone have the chance to see what would happen to a Werewolf Barb? Since they can equip Wolfhowl and transform into a Werewolf, would they also be subject to Druid Human form IAS? Logically that should be the case but coding wise I don’t know if the game directly applies druid human form IAS to Werewolf form in general or does it take into account the character’s human form IAS instead (the ladder would make things interesting).