Zovaal the Jailer’s gender-confused soul

There’s a difference between trying to get attention and wanting and trying to hurt, annoy or offend someone. If you don’t see the difference, that’s your problem.

I thought the title would be unusual enough to catch people’s eye, and I was right. If I wanted to offend, I’d have used an actual slur… and after checking several lists of slurs in response to Baalsamael’s comment, that wasn’t on them, @Cursewords.

Do you have anything else to add to the topic of this thread that isn’t a strawman and/or a personal attack?

Pointing out your dishonesty with your own words is not a strawman or personal attack. It is a statement of fact.

But, since you ask, sure.

You combined them. The manner you used to get attention was to hurt and annoy. You knew it when you made the thread. Yet, you act as if you didn’t know it was offensive and you just wanted civil discussion.

Your claims of civil discussion ring hollow when even after people mentioned it to you, and even after you researched and learned that the medical community itself rejected that terminology, you still like the title because …

Ah. To own the libs.

It is clearer with every post you make - by your own words - that you purposefully made an offensive click bait title to belittle a group of people, and to Troll. Not for some civil lore discussion.

You are Lore Confused. That does not mean the Jailer’s soul is “Gender Confused”.

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That’s a lot of words to just say “No (I) don’t have anything to add that isn’t a strawman or a personal attack”, @Cursewords.

I now know that the Arbiter was made from some of the anima - and the seal - of the Jailer. Now I know the mechanics of the Arbiter’s creation, this thread’s purpose - learning that - has been fulfilled, but I’ll leave it up in case others have relevant points to add.

It is telling that you admit to making a click bait thread based on your totally incorrect understanding of the lore, and then you were quickly corrected by multiple posters within the first few posts.

Your bad joke ended up making you the joke, because it proves you don’t even know what you are talking about.

At least you came away learning something that you were clearly ignorant of before you made this click bait thread.

It was never a joke, and I never said it was.

I had a question about the lore, so I made a thread to get an answer… and you try to twist that into a criticism of me. Do you realize how desperate and pathetic you sound right now, @Cursewords? So what’s your response going to be; more mean-spirited personal attacks or ignoring me?

You made a click bait thread, using disparaging terms for LGBT people, to get attention. By your own admission :

I don’t need to twist what you plainly typed yourself.

You flatter yourself.

When you make incorrect statements about the lore, and use that as a basis for some incorrect stance - I will point it out. As others do. I don’t hate you. You just are wrong very often.

Take your premise in this thread :

Just wrong.

You are not simply asking a question - you are arguing your incorrect understanding as the facts, until corrected.

Also - if someone says they want a civil discussion, and then admits to knowingly using insults against LGBT people in their thread title as click bait, I will point out that dishonesty.

So you’ve chosen to respond with more mean-spirited personal attacks.

If you really just want to get the last word in, just say so, and remember that getting the last word in doesn’t make a person right or wrong. So is that what you want?

You asked me a question, and then rant about me needing the last word when I answer you.

It appears to be what you want.

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I see where you’re coming from about accusing you of needing the last word after asking a question, and I apologize for that “last word” accusation.

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Replying to him is giving him the attention he craves. He doesn’t want discussion, he want’s an arguement.

We know now that he’s a troll. Next time he makes a clickbait thread we will know to report and make our own in good faith thread.

With such an apparent interest in the topic, OP hasn’t yet responded to anyone actually talking about the topic.

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Actually this topic was resolved by question four of this thread, @Renautus. Zahirwrite replied to me;

So I replied.

Then I discussed a few other points raised until we got to Baalsamael’s and your attacks on me. Since the evidence refuting you is right here in the thread… while I’m used to you lying about me by now, I must say that latest lie is a poor quality lie, even for you (plus the fact you said this after I gave Cursewords a genuine apology for something else is telling).

By the way, you said you were going to ignore and block me in another thread, what happened to that?

sigh

I was actually really interested in the topic of anima/souls and why the writers may have made this concious choice.

My statements when I realized where this thread was going stands.

Thad, your queer baiting really cheapens this thread. What other people have contributed is better.

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Thats a later development. We can cite the gender of heavenly beings in early Jewish sources all day. Genesis 6 makes it clear that the elohim are male, and posessed of physical bodies. Proverbs identifies at least one female angel. Female demons are the most popular, particularly the personification of foreign empires (Typically referred to as Babylon). Solomon didnt seem to think there was really any kind of afterlife… just Sheol… the grave. So there doent seem to be an early concept of soul identity beyond death to say “your soul is genderless” until later scholars influenced by foreign spirituality. However, though Jesus is cited as saying that you arent married in heaven because you become “like the angels” christians continued to write of him as “The Bridegroom” and though “The Bride” is mostly a figurative personification of the church the same could be said of any demon or spirit in any mythology. This doesnt even address European christianity, roman catholicism and saint cults which are still Abrahamic. Mary, for example, clearly retains her gender. Though I am less well versed in Islam, it seems superficially, that Islam teaches that gender exists, and marriage exists, in paradise.

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Elohim by itself, Gods, -im is plural termination, usually masculine, but many modern Jewish scholars use it to demonstrate both the plurality of gender and non-gender of God in Antiquity among early Jewish communities due to its use in Genesis 1.

Bene ha Elohim, which is what is in Genesis 6 actually says, is how we derive gender: Sons of the Gods.

The details of how Angels (and Demons, or Djinn, thereby) have sex is a hot topic for a very long time, with a wide variety of issues. Some insist it is not that the Sons of God had gender inherent upon them but rather they had the capacity to take flesh; some interpret the latter to mean they possessed men or that they literally created bodies from earth like neo-adams.

Islam is complex because various groups have argued various things. Most Shia jurisprudence maintains that gender is actually determined by the soul, not the body, and thus someone who is gay is “actually” a woman inside a man’s body, and thus they are encouraged (or obligated, depending on the historical moment) to transition to being a woman.

Otherwise, many take the linguistic approach, so for example some words for Soul (ruh aka Spirit/Breath/Soul, analogous to the Jewish Ruach, which became equivocated with the Greek Pneuma, which is the “Living” Soul/Spirit) is and can be either masculine or feminine, other words used (e.g. Nafs aka Self, analogous to Jewish Nephesh, which became equivocated with the Greek Psyche, the Rational Soul) is often monogendered.

The nature of paradise for Islam is complicated because while there is “wine” in Paradise, the wine doesn’t get you drunk, so it it’s spicy grape juice at best, because the nature of wine is the getting you drunk, alcoholic part.

The lack of marriage in heaven is not because we “become like angels”, which Jesus did not say. You are referring to Luke 20, where Christ says, “because they are equal to/like the angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection”. The Greek used “isangeloi gar eisin”, and isa- is not homoangeloi nor homoiangeloi, so its not a question of becoming or being like angels but rather acquiring some of their characteristics.

However, because in the resurrection we are affirmed as given perfected bodies and are all one in Christ/God, and angels are spiritual beings, we thus will have our souls and bodies perfected and be one with God, and thus there will be no death but also no marriage (or sex).

This is why I said generally, because generally most Abrahamics fall on the spectrum of “the gender of our being is not absolutely rooted in our souls” and the metaphysics of non-corporeal spirits maintains they are, well, non-corporeal but that these souls can take on bodies in circumstances.

Roman Catholicism maintains souls do not have Gender.

The use of gender for Saints is merely a historical product.

Mary is a special case because of the Assumption/Dormition, same as how Christ ascended with Body into Heaven.

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Actually, Matthew 22:29-30

But that’s besides the point. And really I was just nitpicking your choice of the word “generally” because it is not generally so with Abrahamic religions, considering the thousands of years and innumerable incarnations of that broad classification of beliefs.

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You really gonna argue the bible with a guy named Baal? xD Just get him up on a hill and ask him to light some stuff on fire, resolve it that way.

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It’s Lord Samael. I probably shouldnt argue anything with the Archangel known for doing God’s dirtywork.

I mean what matters most is the current landscape when discussing contemporary perspectives on the metaphysics of gender with regards to the soul, which was the subject at hand when looking at Zovaal.

i.e. assuming the same global population statistics for religions apply to the WoW playerbase, there are more Catholic players than Protestant players, and more Sunni players than Shia players, etc.

Ancient theologies nobody holds today is kinda meaningless.

It’s the same root, and both use Isangeloi :stuck_out_tongue:

So you’re saying Zovaal is her dead name, her taking the blue pill, thus being the most powerful entity of death?

The Arbiter being trans could be a really interesting story if told right, but I don’t think they can pull it off.

Maybe they are waiting for the release of the last Matrix movie to copy it’s ending.

…it’s never stated she was made from his soul. She houses his key. Not soul. Last time I checked, we saw the creation of multiple keys, and none involved their leaders giving up part of their soul.

The Venthyr created a new one by combining the amulets powers. The Night Fae made one by using the Tear of Elune. The Kyrian made one by combining the powers of the Paragons, not Kyrestia.

So what to you says that Zovaal’s Key is his soul?

In fact, there’s a few key points here:

  1. She was created by the Eternal Ones, who have been shown to be able to create other beings with souls (Prince Renathal, the Fae Faeries, etc.)
  2. Nothing ever states she doesn’t have a soul of her own, which at this point, I would not be shocked if she wakes up later in the expansion.
  3. It’s never stated she is dead, or she can’t operate without the key.
  4. The Primus states he needs to find a substitute for Zovaal’s Key. I suspect the Arbiter is going to play a part in that.
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