Zovaal is the absolute best

… Precog in the entire Azerothian universe. Until he suddenly isn’t.

Don’t believe me? Well, now that my premise and clickbait title are out of the way, let me prove it to you.

First, let’s address the Five Predictions Zovaal made to Sylvanas.

  • Predicting the Burning Legion would return is about as impressive as predicting it will rain sometime between May 2022 and September 3033. Toss that away.
  • Predicting Vol’jin’s final words to Sylvanas about stepping out of the shadows and leading? Easy to do when you’re working with the guy who whispered in Vol’jin’s ear. Toss that away, too.
  • But Sargeras stabbing Azeroth right through the heart? That requires knowing the Heroes (us) would defeat Sargeras and that Sargeras would have the opportunity to stab Azeroth and that Azeroth would conveniently rotate Silithus in his direction. This requires a lot of very specific information, such as the roughly accurate time we’d defeat Sargeras, that Sargeras would do some effectively light stabbing (that sword sure is pretty dang big and going to the hilt would have definitely been fatal).
  • Knowing Sylvanas would hold Azerite in her hand sounds big, but it really isn’t; if you know Azeroth’s gonna get stabbed, you know she’ll bleed. And if you already know that blood is powerful, you know the Horde and Alliance leaders will probably touch it. Toss this one away also.
  • And of course, predicting that this would convince Sylvanas to join him and take Bolvar’s cap and break it’s also a wash.

So, just one accurate prediction that can only be a prediction?

Nah, I got more evidence. Most of which we already know or suspect; his plans required too many fine details to work out exactly right, from Sargeras finding the void world in all the cosmos, being convinced by the nathrezim to go cray-cray, that Sargeras would find Argus of all the worlds in the cosmos, that the Legion’s three attempts on Azeroth would fail, etc etc. There’s a lot of things that had to go exactly right, and did.

But let’s focus on what we can prove. Let’s turn our attention to the in-game events of WoW the MMO and what specifically had to occur.

Let’s start with the Argus rocket that killed Robo-Arbiter, because if you don’t believe Zovaal is the greatest seer in the entire Azerothian universe now, this must convince you. I’m going to skip a whole hell of a lot of steps to avoid going down the rabbit hole, and work my way backwards to reach a key point, so follow me on this journey.

For the Argus rocket to happen, Zovaal had to know we’d kill Argus. To know that, he had to know we’d invade Argus, and how it would happen. Any sooner and Sargeras wouldn’t have reached Azeroth’s heart, any later and Sargeras would have finished the job. To know we’d invade Argus, he had to know we’d free Illidan and get the magic keystone, which requires Zovaal to have known Gul’dan would have stolen Illidan’s body in the first place. Speaking of Gul’dan, he needed to know that AU Gul’dan would get yeeted through the portal, because without Gul’dan the Legion wouldn’t have arrived when they did, leading to the rest. Which means Zovaal knew we’d end up on Draenor, which in turn means he knew Garrosh would find a McGuffin that would allow him to reach Draenor.

There’s a whole lot more accurate predictions going from there, regarding how he’d need to predict everything from the BC-era opening of the Dark Portal so Thrall could find Garrosh, and you already see how deep this rabbit hole goes.

Some of this can be chalked up to a many layered plan to provoke certain events from occuring. But a lot of them require people making very specific choices at very specific times. Garrosh, AU Gul’dan, Illidan, Khadgar, Velen, all of them and more could have made a different or even slightly different choice and thrown this whole thing off entirely. He had to know exactly how they’d react, and to do that, he’d need to have accurate predictions of their future behavior.

But Argus isn’t the only one. Let’s go for a shorter trip back to patch 9.1.

Primo hid his sigil away. He hid it in a whole other land lost in the In-Between, locked in a memory, hidden in a broken building. Zovaal clearly already knew all of this. Part of why he needed Korthia, perhaps the biggest part, was he needed all five sigils and one was here. From there, the Maw Walker goes, stumbles on to the sigil, opens it up or something, and brings it to the Primus… Where Zovaal and his forces are already waiting to attack and immediately did so. Now with the sigil not protected by all its traps and shenanigans, Zovaal just took it by way of his already-prepared and uniquely qualified pet Anduin.

All of Zovaal’s moves here led to the exact moment he could claim the fourth sigil. He was prepared for every step, right to the end.

But maybe you’re unsure. Maybe you’re thinking “well, he can’t predict our actions!” And… You’d be wrong. Because he absolutely can and did, and we were key components to his plans, as I’ve already outlined.

  • He needed us to defeat Argus right about the moment we did.
  • He also predicted our victory in Hellfire Citadel, because without it, Gul’dan does not get yeeted.
  • There’s also us freeing Illidaniel and accompanying him to Argus.
  • More importantly, he foresaw our involvement with the Primus’s sigil.

This last bit is important, because if we’re going to establish Zovaal’s prescience, we need to know it’s limits. And clearly, whether in an alternate timeline, on Azeroth, in the Shadowlands, on Argus, even in the Maw, Zovaal sees. And Zovaal knows. Heck, he even knew we’d follow him to Zereth Mortis and left forces waiting for us as we arrived. He even required us to follow him so we could access First Ones technology (we’re told in quests nobody else has been able to do this, and Zovaal had to brute force his way through what we could do pretty easily) to prep the new Arbiter body so he could try and fit Argus in it.

… Which is suddenly where his precognition fails him. Because starting here, literally everything falls apart for the greatest seer. He can’t foresee his own defeat and can’t piece together we’d beat up Argus again. Because this great skill that allowed him such microcosmic precision as to predict within minutes our defeat of Argus just… Stopped working. Because.

So what’s the point of all this? Why’d I type this long essay to convince you of Zovaal’s near-perfect prescience? Why am I wasting my time?

Because I’m bored as heck, obviously!!

And because this is all the hallmark of bad writing. This level of required foresight that suddenly stops for the plot is emblematic of writers trying to write a hyper-competent mega-genius. They start with the end goal and work their way backwards, attributing far more than necessary to their villain to make them seem like a master planner. But then they realize they’ve painted themselves into a corner and either force into the narrative a reason why the mega-genius misses some key detail, or just don’t.

This is a case where they just didn’t. They wrote Zovaal as impossibly competent, capable of seeing the future to within the very choices people will make, when they’ll make them, and how they will implement those choices. If Khadgar decided Illidaddy might not be the best person to hold on to the magic keystone and held on to it himself? Narrative falls apart. If Turalyon swung just a little harder, or even a second time, the whole plan falls apart. If N’zoth just blew up the reorigination machines because they could be used against him, the whole plan falls apart. If we fell to Argus, the whole plan falls apart. So on and so on.

And because they wrote Zovaal so hyper-competent, they ended up forgetting to put a flaw into his competency that would explain his defeat. It can’t be “Zozo can’t predict Maw Walkers” because he’d been predicting them since day one. It can’t be “Zovy can’t predict in ZM”, because he predicted we’d find the Arbiter Husk and get it refitted.

So instead we have a stealth plothole; hyper-competent, mega-genius Zovaal who can absolutely see into the future in exacting detail suddenly loses all of that, just in time to be stopped.

Rant over. The end.

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I don’t think Illidan’s involvement was predicted by Zovaal, I think he put his bets on the Army Of Light. They were already attacking Argus before we arrived and would have invaded Antorus without us. It makes sense that Lothraxxion is an agent of Denathrius or Zovaal and was used to guide the Army Of Light to Argus through dreadlord manipulation. The Illidari giving them a boost was good luck. In regards to where Sargeras sword stabbed into Azeroth, that’s something where you can’t think on the logic of it, we see in the cutscene him holding onto Azeroth with a hand yet his hand touching the planet didn’t damage it, a bunch of the planet should’ve been crushed by that.

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You can doubt Illidan’s involvement, but it’s absolutely critical.

Without Illidan, without us getting to Argus through the rift he created, the Army of the Light would have been defeated. We arrived right on time. The Xenedar had just crashed, and with it the path to Antorus was gone. We had to use the Vindicaar to blow it back open. No Illidan, no rift for the Vindicaar to fly through to reach Argus. No Vindicaar then no Antorus. No Antorus, no Argus death and the whole plan for Zovaal falls apart.

Edit: There’s more here, but I see you typing and will reply with it out of courtesy.

Sure, but I don’t think Zovaal predicted those details. He just happened to get lucky in that regard. He probably figured his dreadlords would kill the adventurers in Zereth Mortis and that’s when his luck ran out. Not that it’d matter since if he won his raid fight he’d remake everything and could just materialize a new Arbiter using the Sepulcher. Probably atleast half of his plan comes to luck.

No amount of guesswork or luck could account for the level of precision needed to confidently predict exactly when and how Sargeras would near-fatally stab Azeroth. And even if it were guesswork and luck, that guesswork and luck all hinged on the same unstoppable murder machines (the players) that were chasing him down to give Zovaal his own slice of unstoppable murderyness.

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Well. He had to.

Because without Illidan’s involvement, without the rift? Sargeras never reaches and stabs Azeroth.

While never explicitly stated, it’s easily extrapolated that Sargeras went through the rift. He was on Argus when we arrived, chatting with his servants. We’ve long known physically travelling to Azeroth was something Sargeras couldn’t do; both prior invasions required him to be summoned, which obviously failed. The first time he even nears Azeroth is when a portal between where he is and where he wants to go is opened. He’s also vacuumed up through that same rift, given that the Vindicaar and the vacuum beam travel similar paths.

No rift means Sargeras doesn’t reach Azeroth, doesn’t stab Azeroth, and we know Zovaal knew that exact chain of events would happen as far back as pre-Cata.

Illidaniel was necessary.

But he would have every reason to not think that; Dreadlords had been trying to kill us since Korthia and failed. And, again, he wanted an ArgusArbiter, and needed us to make that happen.

Why did he want an ArgusArbiter? Who knows. The relevant part is he did, he planned for it, he required our unwitting aide to make it happen, and it is the first of his plots to actually fail.

I already mentioned the Army of Light, so it doesn’t.

They were on the ropes before we showed up, though. Any Dreadlords working for Team Nipple would have been very aware of that, including Lothraxion. There is zero chance they could have taken out Argus given they weren’t the Titan-backed artifact-wielding murder parade we were. Then there is the question of how Sargeras would even get to Azeroth—if the Army of the Light managed the impossible and did all of the above, that still leaves all of them local to Argus, nowhere near Azeroth for the planet-stabby-time.

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But it still does. Again, the one thing the AotL needed to get into Antorus is the big gun on the Xenedar. The Xenedar crashed. The gun got installed on the Vindicaar to do the job and open the way into Antorus.

The AotL could not have subbed in unless Sargeras just derped around not killing Azeroth while already there, waiting for the AotL to finally kill Argus so he can do his stabbing. The Vindicaar was needed. The rift was needed for the Vindicaar to arrive through. Illidan was needed to make the rift.

There’s no way around this; any change in these events would change one of Zovaal’s actual predictions to Sylvanas and invalidate it. Instead, he had 100% accuracy. This cannot be luck; it had to be true prescience.

I will concede re: the stabbing that I don’t think that was Sargeras’ plan. Him manifesting his sword and sticking Azeroth seemed more like a reaction to the Titans at the Seat forcing him into his Time Out Chair. Still, absent Illidan and the players, he would have had to hurl his sword through space because he would not have been at Azeroth.

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Sure. You totally should, but you then have to work all this out before publishing chapter one… not 6 months before beta of the epilogue. You also have to follow the rules of mystery writing. Thats essentially what you are doing when you write a secret supervillain genius. You are inviting us to figure out who he is and what he plans to do.

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Illidan isn’t the only one who could use the keystone. It was in Sargeras possession before Illidan had it. Assuming Illidan never took it, Sargeras would have used it himself at some point, presumably in that moment.

Interesting, so I can still see the thread.
And the elf is more chocolate now… did not notice that.

Hah, you thought you were prepared to debunk Illidan’s required involvement. But Evelysaa, allow me to assure you.

YOU ARE NOT PREPARED!!

Because even if we do assume that Kil’Jaeden or Sargeras planned to steal it back from the Illidari (who actually had it, not Sargeras), wait a bit until the proper moment to use it…

Illidan is still critical to the plan. Illidan’s the one who noted breaching Antorus would need something more than raw man-power. He’s the reason we used the big laser.

But more importantly, without Illidan using the Sargerite keystone to open a portal from Kil’Jaeden’s ship to Azeroth, Velen and Khadgar wouldn’t have made it off. This portal allowed Velen to survive, which in turn allowed Velen to push through construction of the Vindicaar.

Aww, you missed me so much you wanted me to know you saw my thread!!

But Illidan, Velen, Khadgar, none of them were included in Zovaal’s plan. The Vindicaar’s involvement wasn’t either. You’re assuming Zovaal doesn’t have contingencies for if the plan fails, and we know that his plans haven’t been perfect at every step. He’s failed in controlling the Lich King three times. A lot of it is being patient and waiting for opportunities to show.

There’s a possibility that his “prophecies” would’ve failed and he wouldn’t have been able to get Sylvanas on his side. If that happened, he’d just have to search for another agent. He had ton of free time, he could afford to wait however long it’d be to get someone else.

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See, the issue is you think I’m talking about a plan.

I’m not. I’m talking about how Zovaal accurately predicted a future event in the form of Azeroth getting stabbed, but surviving.

For that to happen the way it was predicted, all preceding events leading up to that moment had to happen as they did.

No Illidan? No gate to Argus, Velen dies, the Vindicaar does not take flight, the Army of the Light is stranded without a ship and no way to breach Antorus.

But they didn’t, and that’s the point. His prophecies did not fail; they happened as he said they would happen. You’re arguing a hypothetical that is already made irrelevant because the hypothetical never occurred.

Zovaal did predict Sargeras would stab Azeroth. Sargeras did stab Azeroth. Zovaal predicted this before Legion, before WoD, before MoP and before Cata. Four years ahead of time, he knew exactly how events would occur. This is factually what happened. You can say “but maybe” as much as you want; “but maybe” never happened. Stabbify did happen.

These things happened because he manipulated them into happening.

  1. He used the dreadlords to start Sargeras on his search for Azeroth.

  2. He has Mueh’zala in his pocket and assassins could’ve been sent out at any time.

  3. Sargeras has always wanted to destroy Azeroth and his MO in destroying planets is with his sword.

  4. Azerite comes with the planet being wounded.

  5. Sylvanas joining him after this has happened was almost guaranteed.

He predicted the events because he set them up, but they weren’t entirely guaranteed. He placed bets with high chances that they’d happen.

See, that is objectively worse. That means Zovaal truly is such a 10th degree master planner mega-genius that his plans work on a microcosm scale, enough to ensure Illidaniel (among many other NPCs and the PCs themselves) acted exactly as needed. And yes, there’s a possibility of failure, but that possibility is utterly irrelevant because it never happened.

If this is all just intricate planning on a cosmological scale, and not some degree of foresight, then his defeat makes even less sense for the lack of any back-up plans for the murderhobos he sent on his own trail.

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No. I don’t think you understand what I’m saying. You keep saying that Illidan is part of his plans but I really don’t think he was. You keep making me repeat this. You’re assuming he has everything planned out but atleast a quarter of it is probably improvisation.

He’s worked toward goals and from the info given to us he’s accomplished most of them. It’s possible there’s been plans of his that have fallen through but we don’t know because they’re not important to the story. You’re talking about Illidan in the same way someone would say the Lich King was made to get Sylvanas on his side. Sylvanas is an improvisation because he originally wanted the Lich King to do the work she did. He didn’t have the Scourge created just for Sylvanas.

The main tool he’s had are the dreadlords and without them he wouldn’t have been able to do what he’s done. They’re the foundation of his plans. They’ve given him everything he’s needed so of course he’s going to rely on them to do what he wants. Just because they’ve failed once doesn’t mean they’ll continue to fail. When a failure happens it can be moved on from and something else can be done in its place.

And this is what you’re missing; it couldn’t be. Because the only way Azeroth gets stabbed after Sylvanas is made war chief during a burning legion invasion is if those exact events, as told to Sylvanas four or more years before, happen. Meaning either he had planned those exact events out to happen in that order, or he foresaw those exact events happening in that exact order.

Your argument works if his predictions were vague. They were not. Your argument would work if he made many predictions and only five came true. There were only the five, all of which came true. Your argument is not accounting for the circumstances.

You’re saying he might have had plans we didn’t know about that may not have worked. That’s a whole batch of irrelevance, because there’s only one plan he had that did not work, and that was the plan that got him locked away. Everything since then that has been mentioned has worked towards this singular goal.

You’re also taking my concept of Zovaal being a perfect seer far too literally. The final five paragraphs of my initial post highlight what I was getting towards with all of that; Zovaal is written as hyper-competent, mage-genius level intellect, capable of clockwork precise plans… Until he just suddenly isn’t. Because bad writing.

I think there’s some communication barrier going on, where we’re talking past each other or just not seeing anything the other is saying. I don’t know why, because this doesn’t usually happen between us.