While ultimately saying ‘the Lightbound are more right than wrong’.
In the original context, it was fine.
In the context you responded to me, it was fallacious.
My comment was ‘this is a justification for colonialism and slavery’.
And the response was, ‘talking about slavery an colonialism, here’s why the Iron Horde and Mag’har are bad’.
Which is absolutely fallacious. Which you yourself have admitted twice now.
Yes, I said they’re more right than wrong. The post is they’re not entirely right, but not entirely wrong either. Where do you stand on the whole situation?
The Draenei aren’t colonialists; colonialists deliberately occupy a country to exploit it, the Draenei crash-landed while fleeing the Legion. The colonials weren’t in the same situation, so it wouldn’t work as a justification for colonialism; I suspect you’re invoking colonialism to demonize Yrel’s group. That sounds like a dog whistle to me.
It’s not “blame the victims and whitewash the aggressors” when its a case of the tables being turned; now the former victims - the Draenei - are in a position of power while the former aggressors/oppressors - the Mag’har - are still oppressing others - the Ogres.
This is an extremely complicated subject.
Well, depends on where the devs would want to take the story. There is a Leguion quest, called “Awakenings”, where Xe’ra (Light’s Heart) says:
When our work is complete, I will be lost to the Great Dark.
Which could mean that she new really well how it’s going to proceed. The question then is “why”.
She was quite weak at the time when she would need to act. So, one of options would be that she might need someone else to lead instead of her. And she needed to convince the rest to accept another leading figure instead. Which kind of worked actually.
Another thing is that the ship itself used a peculiar items. It needed both the core of a Light and a Shadow naaru. So, perhaps both L’ura and Xe’ra knew about it. Then Xe’ra would need a way to “give away” her functioning naaru core to us. And L’ura maybe accepted sacrificing herself twice: to give time to those who was fleeing the planet, and then - to be used just as a core to defeat, at least temporary, the Burning Legion.
https://cdnb.artstation.com/p/assets/images/images/024/438/047/large/jessica-dinh-jdinh-v7-text.jpg?1582420662
Art of the “dual core” thing I mean. A bit more at: https://www.artstation.com/artwork/lVmrPV
gl hf
Yes it is, but so many on this thread strawman or oversimiplify it as “Mag’har good, AU Draenei bad”.
And I don’t get what you mean here. The orcs are former victims of the ogres.
Try treating it as “is genocide good or not” instead. I don’t think questioning the target is valid for anything other than trying to make an excuse for it. Everyone knows what the AU orcs did back in WoD and I don’t think anyone’s defending those actions either.
Yes, just as the Draenei are former victims of the Orcs. So is it okay for the Mag’har to do that to the Ogres… but not okay for the Draenei to do it to them?
I don’t think anyone said it’s okay. But I also don’t think whatever the Draenei are doing is on the same level as the orcs.
But at the end of they day, you’re calling them right.
If at the end of the day you think they’re right, that’s what I find important.
I’m anti-slavery, I made that clear at the start.
I said your post reads like a justification for colonialism, not that they were colonialists.
Basically, ‘it is right for the people to move in and push their religion on the savages. I don’t love exactly how they’re doing it, but ultimately it is right’.
If you think colonialism is bad, then you need to analyze your own rhetoric.
I think Y’rels group are bad. But that’s unrelated to your colonialist apology mindset.
A dog whistle for what? That I dislike colonialism? I’ll openly admit that.
That I think their group are more or less slavers? I’ve openly admitted that.
It sounds like you just want to spin around things you’ve been accused if, but it doesn’t really fit in-so-far as I think my opinion has been pretty forthright.
It is when the status quo was reset. Peace was made. And now the Draenei are aggressing and the Orcs are victims.
Again, the original Horde wasn’t right to aggress even if they felt justified.
The Lightbound aren’t right to aggress, even if they feel justified.
It’s possible Xe’ra knew she’d die on Argus. Both Light and Void are capable of prophecy (the thing is so many fans are hanging on the every word of Il’gynoth and hopping on the anti-Light bandwagon they forget the Light can accurately prophesy too)
It would be an interesting plot element if Xe’ra went through with it because she knew how it would pan out, but I’m not sure that’s what the devs were going for.
Does she really? She wanted to kill Alleria (supposedly, when she started her descend into the Shadow), yet didn’t. Xe’ra did not have much screen time but there were at least 2 times when she was like “ok, fine, do whatever” (Alleria’s actions, and changing her mind when Alleria ended up lying and ran away to further go in the Shadow direction iirc).
Does it make her benevolent? Well, not really. But it could make her like Great Ones in Bloodborne: they are sympathetic, yet their way of thinking is utterly alien to humans. Not sure if the devs would go in that direction though.
gl hf
I’m not a colonialist apologist, and I never though supported it. I called it a dog whistle since it looked like you were using the colonialism comparison as a snarl to rally certain people against my position, that’s not trying to spin things around.
Who says peace was made? There’s a lot of missing lore and I’ll have to dig up that interview where one of the developers said that the conflict “didn’t go away”. It’s hard to say Yrel’s group don’t have reason to aggress when their former oppressor - AU Grom - is walking around unpunished among the Mag’har (the magnitude of AU Grom’s crimes warrant far more than a slap on the wrist); reminds me of real-life laws about aiding and abetting felons. Plus, as I said, the Mag’har are still aggressing on the Ogres without the Iron Horde.
The thing is, the currently accepted “Light sees 1 path, Void sees all possibilities as truth” is not even Il’gynoth. It’s coming from Locus Walker. And, funny enough, what Locus Walker says contradicts what is known from both Velen (the Vision given from the Light is described in a short story; could be summarised as just perception of probable events. Chronicles mention that “naaru saw limitless possibilities”. At least until they vowed to something / someone to use pursue a very specific goal, spread hope and nurture life, whatever that means) and Xal’atath, who says that there is the true path.
Edit: story about Velen and his vision https://worldofwarcraft.com/en-gb/story/short-story/leader-story/velen
gl hf
In “A Thousand Years of War” Xe’ra warned Alleria to never use the Void again, at some point after that threatened to kill Alleria if she did so. Alleria said she wouldn’t… then proceeded to do so. Xe’ra was prepared to kill Alleria, but Turalyon and Lothraxion spoke up for her since Alleria did it to help them, and Xe’ra relented and imprisoned her (not much of a zealot if they can be reasoned into a compromise lol).
Benevolent? I don’t know if Xe’ra is. She did let Turalyon use her core to send a personal message to his son Arator, but she’s got some big picture and ruthless ways too.
Your argument sure reads like it.
Again, you’re saying it is right for foreigners to come force their religion on the savages.
That’d just be demonizing or something. I’m openly against colonialism and said from the start your argument resembles said support.
I mean, the Iron Horde was disbanded last I checked. And the Draenei and Orcs both talked about how they worked together for years.
/a sad tone question
What is the likelihood that the current dev team will handle a complicated topic with a necessary attention to details of it instead of using just a few convenient for them characters all the rest be damned?
Judging by what I see in the BfA story I saw so far (Ready for War achievement) - the answer I expect is depressing.
Well, the devs seemingly just used it in BfA for promo materials. I looked at the 1st part of the BfA story at it’s not given almost any focus or development. Perspectives of other races, parallels to other events on WoW, or what different races been though, perspectives of those who had someone important dying during the events - pretty much nothing.
So far I see the story of BfA as “it’s ok if it’s not touching the topic you’re personally invested in but don’t you dare touch those things!” Like “omg, Zelling, free will” right after forcing a bunch of people into undeath, from Amalia Stone, to those mentioned by Zelling himself. But those are not relevant, cause “feel sympathy for Zelling! Free will!” That was sad to look at.
Something like that I expect to be with this part too. There could be legit reasons when both sides could be victims of another force, or they could both have some reasons to do things. But is it likely that the topic would be explored in necessary details and care, rather than “oh, just a few weeks ago they were slaughtering us, but now Draenor is free! Because that is convenient to throw it all away and move to a new expansion!” (even though later Danuser says that the conflict did not go away actually lol)
Unfortunately, not really. I am not sure I’m the right person to explain how it all combines. To me the story is utter nonsense that is pushed by the devs in a direction that they feel like, regardless of how it fits into the known lore.
The only “explanation” I could think of is that the devs in reaction to how people saw the WoD story (orc acting like orcs without fel juice) and needed quickly to say “it’s ok now” which led to “Draenor is free” which seemingly existed only so that the players would not ask questions.
But that did not propagate into the story much with the current official statement “the conflic did not go away”.
sorry, after looking at how the story lines are handled lately I was a bit 
gl hf
I actually thought about this a bit yesterday, which is what prompted my post earlier in the thread about sympathizing for villain-batting the light. At first I didn’t take it too seriously because “lol deus vult” but if Thadeus genuinely likes the light being shown as a benevolent force and has that yanked out from under him, I figured that wasn’t any different than all of the crowing I do about the “good monster” theme feeling ruined.
But yeah, I wouldn’t expect this topic to be done any better than BFA was. While I wouldn’t expect it to be as impactful unless the alliance as a whole gets dragged along with it, the foundation seems to run along the same lines WoD did; it’s just that this time, the game’s passively saying draenei are doomed to be galactic oppressors in the same way the orcs no longer needed demon blood to be world invaders.
/offtop
Some time ago (around Shadowlands beta time) I had a brief discussion on reddit. There was a person who was asking questions like “in which covenant would Stasia Fallshadow be?” “how could she react if she encounters a person who killed her [Valeera]?” “How would Valeera react?” I mostly participated in that chat because other people seemed not interested, but it was kind of a lesson for me, that there is no character or a place too small.
For somebody somewhere any of those things could be something relevant. And while it’s easy to dismiss angry people and being like that because they’re always like that, I can also see other situations. People can be under a lot of stress be it at their work place, or school, have troublesome family members. And in this pandemic time they might not be in a comphy situation, but stay almost locked next to sources of psychological or physical abuse.
And for those people, as stupid as it could sound, video games could be a place where they regain some “sanity”, can get into “it might get better” mood, and just see it as a source of more positive emotions, something that helps to move on.
And among all of that, I see things like Night Watch, Teldrassil, Warcraft 3 version of the horde, etc. Where the devs be just like “you like that thing? Destroy it!” And yes, it’s unrealistic to expect that no character would be even dead or something like that, but the pay off needs to be there. The things that would be impacted. should be mentioned at least with a degree of the respect.
And then, those same people [I mean some of the writers] are talking about “moral lessons” in the game.
Why did I even made that post? Well, what you said just made me think about those things. That after all these years people have many things, any of which could be very important for someone however stupid that could sound for an outsider. Yet it’s handled like… idk how to describe it.
gl hf
You’re right about that highlighted quote, and the rest of what you said; especially since this is an example that flies in the face of established lore, gets oversimplified by writer and fan alike, and requires people acting completely out of character to happen in-universe.
I honestly don’t mind having Light followers leave the Light and turn bad or have Light followers doing bad stuff… but retconning the Light in a nonsensical way to appease some writers fetish for “morally grey” and “edgy” is terrible.