She did. It was the whole point of the inclusion of the forsaken in the Horde. Undercity. Undercity being part of the Horde kept the peace until the beginning of BFA. In order to make that work you either need to not lose Darnassus and Undercity, or Sylvanas needs a new way to hold the factions hostage.
Big media companies try to use the internet to manufacture outrage to maximize publicity, as well. It shouldnât be a surprise that ever since AOL, more and more nerd-dom is falling victim to hyper-critical fanbases.
I would not be surprised to learn that half the reddit ragers at the start of BFA were paid by Blizzard to be mad online.
Now thatâs a conspiracy theory if iâv ever heard one, no one gets paid to be mad online
I think you missed a LOT about the Forsaken. They joined the Horde as underdogs. They needed the Horde, not the other way around.
Quite the opposite. The only reason there was not war with the Forsaken before BfA was plot armor. Without plot armor the logical end of Cata would have been multiple powers converging on Undercity and wrecking them. Peace between the factions would have made more sense if the Forsaken were not around.
That was the whole problem. Blizzard tried to eat their cake and have it too. They wanted the âplay as the scourgeâ quests. But also couldnât have the world react the same way it did to the scourge because of playable faction plot armor. So, they acted like the scourge, used scourge tactics, and even used mind control. But Blizzard also tried to tell us they werenât really scourge 2.0 and the mind control was only kind of mind control.
They messed up a lot. They created a situation where the Forsaken were causing more problems than the scourge invasion before Wrath did. But it couldnât be resolved because the resolution would have destroyed a playable race. That is exactly an example of why a leader/faction being evil doesnât work.
That makes zero sense. People rage online because it gets clicks and because people think it is the popular thing to do. No company would ever need to pay for it. Plus, while rage does get a lot of attention, it doesnât drive sales of the product (quite the opposite). And sales is what Blizzard cares about. They would never pay to lower sales.
There are lots of cases of various companies paying for good reviews in lots of industries. I havenât seen evidence Blizzard has. But that would not be far fetched. Paying for good reviews would be believable (though you would still need evidence for that claim). But paying for bad reviews is not something that they would do.
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There is a bizarre revisionism on both sides where people still act like the Cata Forsaken are the only Forsaken who have ever been, when Cata was an obvious change of direction especially the further back you went to compare (and it was clear that Kozakâs fanboyism was first and foremost for the scourge - in BC sheâs still a tragic character, by the time Cata starts sheâs been reduced to basically just sexy undead elf lady who does scourge things).
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the weird part is they think its plot armour that the horde wouldnât turn on the forsaken. when they sure as hell wouldnât.
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I donât think that kind of thing was limited to her. There was a shift starting with Cata to the Horde characters being âmetalâ and âbada_â characters. There had to be more smashing, more spikes, more one liners, etc. The attitude even spread to Blizzcons and created problems. Much of the nuance of pre-Cata Horde was drowned by that metal rockstar vibe they seemed to be trying to sell.
Sadly, the âevilâ faction some players asked for fit the pre-Cata Forsaken, and more it worked. They had a lot of evil things around them. And they were presented as mostly keeping it quite because they were weak. They played on Horde sympathies to protect them and kept most of their stuff quite. It worked because in general the world didnât know about the bad things and they were weak enough that it made sense nobody would think of them as a threat that needed put down, even if they found out some of it.
But that just didnât work with the âbada_â vibe that Blizzard wanted the Horde to have, so all that nuance was gone in favor of Scourge 2.0 and Sylvanas flexing.
The Horde that had just marshalled all its forces to charge to Northrend because of fear of the Scourge. The Horde that just lost many of it best in a war to stop the Scourge. You think it makes sense that Horde would totally be okay with Scourge 2.0? You think it makes sense the Blood Elves who got ravaged by the Scourge and were still cleaning up their homeland from the blight would totally be okay with another Scourge. And you think any of the Horde factions should have trusted the Forsaken after they started acting like the Scourge? The whole Horde not trusting the Forsaken was a plot point when the joined the Horde. After the Wrathgate the Forsaken immediately doing Scourge things should have made the Horde lose all trust. At the very least the Forsaken would not have been part of the Horde anymore. That is of course, except for plot armor.
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I think the horde would be fine with their ally doing what they need to yea, after all a military incapable of replacing its losses is worthless
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Would outrage farmers and culture war grifters posting on twitter count? Provided they have the blue check.
Your problem is you are approaching it from the perspective of the plot armor. You know they will always be Horde, so they will always be allies. Them becoming the Scourge 2.0 doesnât threaten the Horde because of plot armor. But from a lore perspective (if the plot armor did not exist) there is no reason to believe the Horde would believe they will remain an ally. That is not in line with any lore before that. The whole story of the Forsaken joining the Horde was they were not fully trusted then, when they were not acting like a scourge. Since then they have revealed the Blight weapon they developed, they have blighted civilians and farms, they started mass raising troops and using them, etc, etc. The Horde would trust them even less and would absolutely see them as a threat.
And secondly, you donât understand what the Scourge did. Think about the Blood Elves. They were basically wiped out by the Scourge. And they already had a rather fraught relationship with the Forsaken. It is not logical to think they would be okay with the Forsaken blighting more land and acting like the Scourge.
The only way the Horde not turning away the Forsaken after they started acting like the scourge makes any sense is if you assume the Horde leaders know plot armor prevents the Forsaken from ever turning on them. And that is the problem. When the only way something happening makes sense is plot armor you have a bad story.
Make Thrall Warchief again and bring the Horde back to pre-Cata themes. Itâll result in a lot of crying from people who like the metal warmongering Horde, but thatâs the best way to handle it. He only ever stopped being Warchief became Metzen was having IRL issues and was losing traction in the writerâs room to the usual suspects.
The trade off, of course, is that if he becomes Warchief he shouldnât be bouncing around on the front lines with the rest of the crew. None of the faction leaders should be, and there are plenty of secondary characters to work in his stead. And if there arenât, make them.
A council is a good idea but functionally itâs just the same thing as what the Vanilla era Horde had, where the leaders of each race and other elders acted as advisors to the Warchief. Itâs not really needed as an official⌠thing, it feels too formal.
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No iâm approaching it from the angle of what would make them a worthwhile ally, the forsaken blight land cause thats how they keep their own casualties down and blighted land makes them feel comfortable if it works anything like the scourge blight. Again a forsaken that doesnât do these things die out in a decade and thusly are not a worthwhile ally. There is no point in allying with a single generation of people if they canât recuperate their losses, or minimize them.
The weird thing is it doesnât even take going back super far to see some acknowledgement of that weird post Cata direction, Lorâthemar threatens to kill her on the spot in mists if she ever thinks of raising even one elf.
I know I canât blame everything on Kozak but there is a lot of Kozak at play in this wanting his edgy cake.
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Warchief``
Again, you are missing the fundamental issues. This isnât just a case of âis our ally stronger.â The question becomes whether or not the Horde can trust them. And they started in a less than trustworthy situation. Particularly already having a rather fraught relationship with the Blood Elves in their blighted zone. So, now the Forsaken start acting like THE WORST enemy the Horde has ever faced to that point, and THE WORST enemy the Blood Elves have every faced in their entire history.
This isnât âoh, you are stronger now, great.â This is âOMG, they are acting exactly like our worst nightmare.â
The only reason they remained in the Horde and the only reason the rest of the world did not come down on them was playable race plot armor.
And to be 100% clear: I am not saying the Forsaken should have been wiped out. I am saying the story that should logically lead to that should never have been told. They should never have been portrayed as the edgy, new scourge faction. They should never have been put in the âlive because of plot armorâ category.
You do know the rest of the Horde was working to try and reverse lands blighted by the scourge, right?
That claim is not supported by facts. Quite the opposite in fact.
Not to mention their actions in Cata were not about survival, they were about expansion. Blighting new lands is not helping them survive, it is helping them conquer.
I donât think you understand that being a good ally is about a lot more than just military might.
I donât personally know how much of a part he played. I have no doubt he played a part. It just expands beyond him. There were lots of devs involved. Like I mentioned before, that toxic, edgy for the Horde mentality even bleed into Blizzcons to the point that apologies had to be made. Again, I know Kosak was a part of it. I just think it is a mistake to focus too much on just him.
No only belves were, the lands blighted by the forsaken are their lands to keep,
It was 100% about survival, the forsaken only turn to blighting gilneas when the death toll becomes unsustainable.
It really doesnât matter cause again, there is no point allying with a group that will be dead in 10 years, If the horde was gunna have a serious problem with the undead sustaining their populace, then they would have had an easier time just wiping them all out and capturing the territory.
This is also keeping in mind that the horde also just uses warlocks all the time and they certainly aint any better then using the blight
And the Plaguelands.
While trying to conquer Gilneas. The death toll while in another countries territory attacking them is not a question of suvival.
I donât know where you got that head cannon, but it is not remotely supported by any actual lore. The Forsaken are not on a 10 year âlifespan.â Attrition will eventually end them, but that could be a LONG time away.
They were not âsustaining their populationâ while invading other lands.
Raising undead from the crypts in their lands, probably not a good thing as the dead did not agree to it. But you could argue that was sustaining numbers. Attacking, killing and raising farmers you canât. That is scourge tactics to grow numbers quickly. That was about expansion and rapid growth. And incidentally that was exactly how the Scourge started their expansion, which lead to the complete destruction of Lordaeron and the near destruction of both Dalaran and the Elves entire civilization. That is not something that would be soon forgotten.
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It is when every death means one closer to extinction
It will not be a long time away as even the newest lore states they go through entire limbs every couple of months
Crypts are not infinite, in a battlefield you need numbers quickly, and the forsaken made do withought turning to mind control.
That is like punching a guy in the face and then shooting him when he punches you back and claiming self defense.
No, some are in weaker states than others. No lore states Forsaken in general go through limbs monthly.
When the battlefield is in someone elseâs territory (which you started the fight with) it is not survival you are fighting for.
Not actually true. Blizzard spent a bunch of effort trying to dodge around the clear mind control in the game when players got upset. But it didnât actually remove mind control from happening.
Their solution was to say that when freshly raised the new undead were âsuggestableâ and âcould be directed.â Meaning they did use mind control to control them, but only for a while and then they couldnât control them anymore. After which âthey were given a choice, join or return to the grave.â It was mind control, just not permanent. It was only forced conscription on the threat of death after the mind control window was gone.
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it is what is
they are all corpses, there is no âbetter stateâ when most of em have their spines justting out
doesnât matter, garrosh told them to fight or die, so they fought
Incredibly true actually, cause that isnât mind control, if thatâs mind control i can mind control a drunk person to do a flip, All forsaken are given the same choice, join, leave or die. Those who where raised where all given the same choice once they were sound of mind