If you want to play Subtlety, go for it. I want my hard-hitting builders and fun Cool Downs back.
2 Likes
Enjoyers of Shadow Dance want the ability to provide hybrid gameplay between Sub and the other 2 specs. That is half the reason the class tree exists instead of only having the spec trees (the other reason being so that all specs have a shared baseline for Utility). I didnt wanna say this but the way you idiots keep saying âgO pLaY sUbâ the comment clearly needs to be made. Your wants donât outweight the wants of others and vice versa. The Dance playstyle worked, there was no reason to remove the ability just because you didnt like it. Call for exactly what you like to be implemented without being a narcissistic child.
More obscure diarrhea.
A third of the class tree, and thatâs perfectly fine.
Clearly it did not, or it would still exist.
You talk in front of mirrors often?
For Sub.
People didnât like Dance reliance on Sub during BFA and were told to play other specs (by you, actually).
They played other specs. And Dance took over their kits too. There are no other specs to retreat to.
And Sub still exists. Go play Sub, as Shadow Dance still exists, despite your pining as if it were a deceased pet.
Since 2004. If you want non stealth go Warrior/Ret/DK/Enhance.
The real issue isnât assassination or sub, itâs outlaw. The one spec that was never ever designed around being in stealth for too long, not never, not zero, just not too long. That being said it was 100% necessary to use vanish as an offensive in pve for all 3 specs back in OG Wrath/Cata.
The whole pirate with slot machine gun/dice rolls can die in a fire.
3 Likes
If their intent is to keep the stealth window mechanics as a main part of all three specs dps rotations, then they should bring shadow dance back.
Itâs true there were a lot of players that wanted shadow dance back to sub, and I agree that it makes sense for it to be sub only. But if they were going to remove it from outlaw and assass, they should have also removed the necessity to play around stealth windows.
This entire issue is simply due to a lack of attention and competent design for the rogue class.
1 Like
And simultaneously replace Thistle Tea.
The core issue is that optimizing DPS for so many of the specs requires the Rogue to be coming out of stealth.
Stealth is perhaps the most iconic and unique aspect of the Warcraft Rogue class fantasy, so it makes sense to lean into. The problem is that Rogues canât really re-engage with that mode (or at least the various benefits associated with it) while still in combat.
Outlaw needs to be divorced from Stealth mechanics entirely from a DPS standpoint.
Subtlety needs to effectively benefit from Stealth (aside from hidden/invisibility) 100% of the time.
Assassination makes thematic sense to be âfront-loadedâ coming out of the initial stealth window, but itâs DoT-based damage profile provides a mechanism through which to carry that DPS forward (perhaps revisiting that burst window whenever enemies die or some other ability is pressed).
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itâs super hard to remove subterfuge now
too many things are tied to it, especially for assa and outlaw
i agree vanish should be a defensive CD, but this requires a complete redesign
things like improved garrote and deathstalkerâs mark would need other ways to be triggered
and itâs not as easy as âbring back shadow danceâ. thatâs a band aid fix. it still means DPS is reliant on stealth, it still means that if you donât start from stealth you are gimped
for all the hate it received, sepsis was a far more interesting semi-solution, at least for assa
Its not a band aid fix. It literally is the fix. A button that lets you use those stealth abilities regardless of whether youve left combat or not. Sub is completely designed around it, but while being a major button for the other 2 specs (as all capstones should be tbh) they werent designed around it.
Sepsis was a 1.5m cd that let you use 2 abilities with stealth addons. Shadow Dance is a 1 min cd that lets you use 6. Whatever changes Sepsis would have made to it (reduced CD or increased duration) would simply make it more like Shadow Dance. At that point why make the changes? Your problem isnt with Shadow Dance, its something else youre refusing to reveal.
Going back to this point, DPS has such a stealth focus once again because we have 1 (maybe 2. Im still on the fence about Supercharger but at least it slaps) good capstone. If we replaced Tea for something thats actually beneficial itd open up the non stealth talents in the spec trees for use. Tuning would still be needed ofc, but itd be more isolated to certain talents instead of a wipe recontextualization across entire spec trees.
Starting from stealth should always be part of Rogue playstyle. Stealth focused, or not. Something like Shadow Dance lets you remediate the error if you dont. It simply works for the goal.
Subterfuge is only hard to remove because so much of a Rogueâs DPS is tied into their stealth window, and Subterfuge is kind of a pseudo fix for that design decision.
Once Outlawâs DPS profile is completely redesigned to not care about its Stealth windows (aka, virtually no benefit to it), moving away from Subterfuge is easy.
To my knowledge, Outlaw is the most reliant on the talent out of the 3 specs, which feels pretty backwards.
sin is pretty reliant on it as well, especially with indiscriminate carnage
at any rate, the short of it is, as long as DPS is tied to stealth, Vanish will be a DPS CD