You really, really, really want rupture unpruned if you care about sub in pvp

[Nose-agamaggan]

Are our memories so short? Did we learn nothing? Do you know why so much damage is funneled into rupture? Because sub is destined to never be viable if rupture isn’t important.

Why? The same reason as frost dk. The same reason they funneled so much damage into frost fever. Because you are destined to be tuned around either instantly killing people, or doing sub- tank damage and being completely irrelevant without rupture’s damage profile.

If you think they will turn sub into a 2 button class that can just shadow strike - evis spam 1 target and win, you’re wrong. It will just get nerfed into irrelevance. Buffing rupture damage and making it possible to contribute to spread pressure and create opportunities to target swap without instantly killing someone WAS the compromise.

What other option is there? You want to be a less interesting warrior with less utility that can’t box any class? CDR doesn’t even exist anymore. So what exactly is the class identity without rupture?

Because I can assure you they won’t allow you to kill people in a cheap shot. And I can assure you that you won’t be able to box other melee pressing 2 buttons. And I can assure you that you won’t be allowed to do non-tank damage if you’re only doing dance gos.

We have enough easy to play and simple classes. Sub doesn’t even have bloated keybinds. It’s not a class that needs button pruning. The difficulty in rogue is multi target management that differs from most melee, not it’s excessive keybinds.

We don’t need every melee to be ret / war level of mass appeal and straight forward win conditions. If you want rogue to be a more popular class without being toxic, then stop giving every class access to multiple stuns that used to be rogues niche. Stop pandering to ret/hunter/war players. Stop balancing around 3v3 instead of the popular modes (shuffle/bgs/2v2) OR (imo) increase dampening in 3v3 so there is not such an extreme disparity in strength between modes for classes. Battlegrounds can be fixed with pvp talents, however, the disparity in dampening skewing balance between 3v3/2v2/shuffle can not be fixed with pvp talents.

You want to improve the new player experience? Designing every class like hunter isn’t the answer. People don’t load into a random bg and see 8 hunters and 4 rets and think “wow those classes are cool, I should try them too!”. More likely they think “wow that’s silly, I guess those classes are just so easy to play and so good why bother with anything else, although I prefer more depth, I don’t enjoy getting owned by backpedalers so I’ll play another game instead.”

In which, the rule by mob mandate just continues to grow. You did not alienate other classes from pvp at a casual level because of their difficulty and complexity, but rather the extreme pandering to the easier classes. Classes that were already the most popular in the game.

[Slade-scarlet-crusade]

@Nose-agamaggan

We have enough easy to play and simple classes. Sub doesn’t even have bloated keybinds. It’s not a class that needs button pruning. The difficulty in rogue is multi target management that differs from most melee, not it’s excessive keybinds.

Not overly concerned about how “easy” the spec or class is play per se, and I don’t think the keybinds were bloated. Were people complaining about bloated keybinds? Genuinely asking. The sentiment that I got was that Symbols of Death sucked, and made the spec feely clunky. That was probably the biggest win for Subtlety. In PVE, there seems to be a great reduction in amount of downtime there is with your damage output, and it is spread more evenly. Sub does great in 10+ keys, but I think it kind of sucks in the lower level keys where a lot of people might gain entry to the PVE scene.

@Nose-agamaggan

In which, the rule by mob mandate just continues to grow. You did not alienate other classes from pvp at a casual level because of their difficulty and complexity, but rather the extreme pandering to the easier classes. Classes that were already the most popular in the game.

The vast majority of the player base does not participate in PVP, and probably cares very little about it. From a pure business perspective doesn’t it make sense to appeal to the overwhelming majority? There’s a reason why almost every mouse is designed for right handed users despite there being a LOT of left handed people in the world. It’s just business, not a mob mandate.

[Nose-agamaggan]

@Slade-scarlet-crusade

The sentiment that I got was that Symbols of Death sucked, and made the spec feely clunky. That was probably the biggest win for Subtlety.

In pvp you just macro symbols with dance, so losing that keybind is irrelevant. You either don’t spec into 3 charges of symbols and only get 2. Or you do get the 3 charges and in that super rare scenerio where you can’t dance but that 16% damage can finish somebody… you still just press the dance keybind. You never just dump all your symbols back to back without tech/dance/stun dr ready.

So yeah, that change means nothing to me.

@Slade-scarlet-crusade

The vast majority of the player base does not participate in PVP, and probably cares very little about it. From a pure business perspective doesn’t it make sense to appeal to the overwhelming majority? There’s a reason why almost every mouse is designed for right handed users despite there being a LOT of left handed people in the world. It’s just business, not a mob mandate.

You can easily make rupture irrelevant in pve without pruning it from the game. There’s already separate pvp/pve tuning for all classes.

Pvp may be a much smaller playerbase, but the effort and resources required to keep it evergreen is extremely small in comparison to designing raids, dungeons, new zones, stories, quests, professions, and so on. Pvp maybe gets 1 new arena map per xpac and a new bg every 3 xpacs.

Many games have dedicated development and tuning that have much less participation than wow pvp. It’s incredibly silly for pve players to actively hate pvp players as if they are harming them in some way. Pvp never supersedes pve on anything that actually matters in the game.

[Mafic-emerald-dream (Mafic)]

Greetings.

The current flaw with Midnight Sub is a similar problem Legion Sub had.

The less abilities you have to work with the less likely BlizZard will allow them to hit “hard”. You have ST, Eviscerate, shadowstrike and backstab, goremaws bites, etc.

So I would not be surprised if BlizZard decides to spread the damage profile of Sub around to not be bursty in PVE or PVP as a result.

It happened in Legion but time will tell.

[Xæthron-stormrage (Xæthron)]

@Slade-scarlet-crusade

The vast majority of the player base does not participate in PVP, and probably cares very little about it.

Primarily because if the barrier to entry that causes a self feeding loop of longer queue times. It might be a little better in Midnight with addon removal, but PvP is the game mode that requires the most knowledge even without addons. If you didnt need to know every little thing about every spec in PvP, 2s and 3s would definitely be mire accessible. It’d in turn increase the player population in the rbgs and solo modes

@Nose-agamaggan

You can easily make rupture irrelevant in pve without pruning it from the game. There’s already separate pvp/pve tuning for all classes.

Well it belongs in PvE as well. In a newer, more thematic form since they already brought attention to it by removing it. PvE rotation is boring without.

[Mafic-emerald-dream (Mafic)]

The Legion Sub Rogue mid expansion rework had to rebalance Sub’s damage profile because it was flat and shadowstrike was causing problems.

[Diecruxx-bleeding-hollow (Diecruxx)]

“Rupture and shuriken storm had muddled identities.”

Why not just make rupture pure single target.

Then for flavor, remake Follow the Blood DS talent to have Shuriken Storm apply rupture (at X%) to all targets instead of increasing shuriken storm and black powder damage.

Removing gameplay choice and pruning core abilities feels bad.

Additionally, I also like the current Clear the Witness talent which makes Shuriken Storm a single target ability. The flat damage increase in the new iteration of the talent is boring and pointless.

Looks like they are going too far in the other direction to dumb Sub down.

[Mafic-emerald-dream (Mafic)]

Beta is progressing but we will see. Loss of Rupture is a contentious issue at the moment.