You can't criticize covenants without criticizing fundamental aspects of MMO

The main criticisms I see about covenants is that you are packaging player power with cosmetics, visuals and a general style and theme,
that some covenants are not good for every situation, and that the covenant system is unbalanceable.

A player that likes Venthir could be forced to play Nightfae because it is better for raiding, but Nightfae could be bad for pvp, so what ever he choses he will not be perfect at everything.

The problem is that the entire game is fundamentally like that.

Some classes are not the best for raiding, some specs are not the best for dungeons, some specs do not interact well with their race traits, while the other class spec does, one faction is better than the other in raids, some professions interact better with some specs more then the other ones, and this goes on and on.

You can’t have an MMO after removing classes, specs, professions, factions and races. Packages of player power and cosmetics will happen and they will be the most important decisions you make in this game. If you remove player power from all of them, they will all be as meaningful as your transmog.

And yes, some covenant and spec combinations are not ideal for every scenario, just like some classes and specs, and that is ok. What is not ok is when the combination is too far behind the others, making the player have to play with one hand tied behind their back.

The solution to this is not to remove classes or covenants, nor remove the power associated with them. The solution is to balance them closer to each other.

Of course balance is subjective and never perfect, but you can’t have an MMO without having things to balance. Even if you think Blizzard devs are incompetent at balancing, there is no other way around it, there will always be things to balance in an MMO, and the perception of imbalance will always exist even on a perfectly balanced game.

And no, covenants are not harder to balance then classes and specs. It is way easier to balance a single skill then an entire spec. If a skill is good for one spec and not the others, add an effect only for the bad one and tune the numbers. If a skill is bad for pvp, add a pvp effect to it.

And yes, just like classes, specs, professions, races and factions, covenants become more annoying the higher you go on the competitive latter. The MMO genre is not designed for world firsts, world championships and people pusning +30 keys.

The genre completely breaks down, forcing players to do hundreds of hours of chores, force them to put vasts amounts of gold and money into the game, force them to have a dozen alts in peak performance to adapt to every scenario. And that is the reason why there are no rewards associated with these activities.

If you play MMOs at this level you know the consequences, you know the game is not designed to be played like this, and yet you do it anyway.

If you are not playing like this, covenants will probably be balanced enough for the content you are doing. If it is not, then we can talk about fixing the specific issue or situation that is causing it, most of the time simple number tuning are enough.

Most players also have a very distorted perception of how balanced things are. It is very common to find players complaining about balance issues while playing one of the top rated spec for that task. Most players overvalue dps and undervalue mechanics, most players completely undervalues the importance of social skills, most players don’t even consider forming a stable group, they want the game to be balanced around pug perception.

To summarize it: Stop using these arguments to ask for ripcord pulling, they make no sense whatsoever in an MMO. If some covenant and spec combination is too bad for a specific scenario lets talk about fixing that instead.

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Very good points made here. Before transmogs, players were using gear and weapons that they thought were hideous but they were best for dungeons and raids so they wore them anyways.

And frankly I’m tired of seeing classes changed in the name of “balance.” To heck with balance. I think one of classics biggest strengths is that you had classes that were very specific for certain tasks and this made even the weakest hitting class important. Professions were also important as some raids couldn’t be completed without someone specializing in skinning or alchemy for a certain boss or npc. The game needs to move back toward that design philosophy.

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I feel like you’ve made an excellent post here with a very compelling argument & cohesive thought process, but the ripcord clownshow just fundamentally disagrees with the entire concept of covenants existing, and does not want to talk about making covenants better, but just outright remove them. Thank you for articulating so clearly these thoughts.

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The only thing I can agree is bad about the covenants is folks that like to fill multiple rolls on a single character.

The Druid for example, for feral a DPS gain will be most beneficial. But I also enjoy healing. So on my Druid, I will have to choose which spec will get the benefit. And will the melee DPS gain also apply to my casting Boomie or my Bear?

The rest of it I agree with, it makes your choice matter. Do your research after Shadowlands drops, and choose what suits your play style.

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There are so many unbacked assumptions in that wall of drivel I don’t even know where to begin.

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I think the difference is comparative depth. Within a class there are three specs, and within those specs there are multiple talent options and abilities which are good at a variety of different things. You might say ok X spec isn’t a very good raid DPS on single target, but within that spec you can make spec specific decisions to make it as good as it can be in that content. Even more choices if your class happens to have multiple specs of the same role.

Covenants don’t have enough mechanical depth to justify the weight placed on them.

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Then that should be what we’re arguing about, not whether they should exist at all.

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If this were any expansion pre-legion, they would have been talents.

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A well reasoned and articulate post. It invites discussion without conflict.

:fire::fire::fire:

This is not allowed of forums. Please edit your post to make far more inflammatory.

Lol jk. It was a good read OP. I agree with most if not all of what you said.

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Lying isnt going to make people side with your opinion.

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Or they’d have even less depth than they do now & be Aldor/Scryers 2.0. Which, actually is kind of what I see them as. Aldor/Scryers taken up to 11.

I don’t think I’m lying, that’s what I read, that covenants should be removed as a concept & boiled down to talents, and I fundamentally disagree with that idea, I find it to be boring.

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That is absolutely not true. The overwhelming amount of people say you can do w.e you want in regards to covenants, they just shouldnt lock player power behind them.

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We’re well and truly past that point though, and it has felt like we’ve been past that point since before we even began. But ok let’s run down this line for the sake of discussion. What would it take for covenants to justify the status of sub spec? For me it’d need at least.

  • Spec specific or spec integrating soulbind traits (Not counting conduits)
  • Multiple ways to augment / improve the class covenant ability to tailor it to content. Provide aoe / single target effects, weaken healing to increase damage etc…
  • The loadout space space to actually accommodate making multiple builds for multiple specs on a class, or removal of the conduit cooldown altogether

That’s not a realistic set of suggestions, I’d argue at no point in SL development has it been. Hence ultimately coming to the conclusion there is not enough depth to the covenant system to justify the weight that’s been placed on it.

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Literally not a single person on any forum, twitch stream or youtube video has asked for covenants to be removed.

Evereything about covenants should stay except for the abilities (Which are just talent points with no way to change them easily).

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But you can have one without adding an additional and temporary layer.

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I didn’t read that entire mess, but there’s a fundamental difference between a player class and the covenants. The class you choose isn’t temporary. You can criticize covenants without criticizing fundamental aspects of MMOs.

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What is the relevance of it being temporary or not?

You can play that game now. Classic is here for you!

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Your class will still be your class after covenants are gone. You can have an MMO without covenants. You can’t without your player character’s role.

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