it may be underperforming in the top 1% but idk spec is fine to clear 20s on i’d wager
i’m coming back to pve next season so we’ll see
I timed a couple of 21s and all 20ies .
You couldn’t do this if they were horribly broken
i don’t mean to disrespect you in any way, but my only guess is that the m+ you doing are around 10~20, i’ve tried to do 25s~26s on my ww and the fact that my overrall is around 170k vs rogues, mages, priests, warrios, sv hunters, balance druids, even dhs, doing around 200k overrall i don’t see how that’s 10~5k more damage, and let’s not forget the path towards second boss in bh, that’s a nightmare because you’re doing virtually no damage, can’t control which adds are you cleave and adds around there spawn a ton of little adds that you dont want/need to kill so that’s a dps loss, the fact that if you’re trying to pug high keys and no one invites you is the way to know that monk is not in a good state, and also, anyone can do 20s youu dont need to be neither good or special to time those right now, i did a few 20s first week of s2 and i didn’t play s1 so timing 20s is nothing special anyone who knows a thing or two about using cds/defensives can time those
Specially if you consider that WW historically is all about aoe/cleave, but there are many classes that out-dps you in aoe/cleave, i wonder if you know how ww feels or plays, i already cleared sark m unlike your paladin, so at te very least i kinda know a thing or two about ww, i’m not saying that i’m an expert but when i’m playing other meta and not that meta classes i feel like my ww is lacking in dmg, specially in a m+ meta where you wanna do the biggest pull possible, but you’re capped, unless you wanna use FoF which is usually a bad option because it’s damage is low as it is right now
and for 10.2 ww doesnt look that good, everyone is saying that new tier is bad and needs a rework, but hey you can look at logs sark’s mythic kills you would find my name on the first 100, actually right now i’m the 40° so i guess i know a thing or two about ww.
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also i forgot to mention, according to blizzard, priest and paladins only have 1 dps spect, as we all know, so for those classes that dps spec is their only option when they wanna do dmg, so it must feel strong, which i totally agree with that statement, they rework both those classes and while retri was meta s1, spriest is meta s2
Later in s2 mages got their rune removed when they got reworks, because it’s an old mechanic, doesn’t feel good to have to stand in the run to deal dmg, if you need to do mechanics well, you’re done you’re gonna do almost no damage, which once again i agree with those changes
then, why if monk also has 1 dps spec, doesn’t feel that stong ?, i dont see it being meta, being top 5 dps specs in m+, or in raiding, hell not even in pvp (which i personally don’t know anything but i’ve read a lot of posts about it) why is it that if monks only have 1 dps spec, ww doesnt feel specially strong and blizz is not doing anything to fix that, and well then we can go to my second point, mages got so happy about blizz removing rune of power because let’s be honest it was a bad mechanic, and guess who else has a rune of power, you got it, monks at least ww and mw, which is horrible to play around, not being able to reset it to applied the extra damage in adds or having to move because of a mechanic and not getting a reset on faeline stomp feels horrible, feels too punising since that’s 8% of your damage gone, because rng got you, so once again, if you dont see why ww needs a rework well you’re blind or don’t know how the spec is played and probably there are more monks that would agree with me on this that disagree
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Judging a spec by if its “meta” or not will always lead to disappointment, so will saying a spec needs to “feel” strong since that is such a vague and subjective measure. You can judge a spec by how its compares to the others, and statistically Windwalker has been fine so far in DF.
It has been strong in S1 and S2; even if it wasn’t “meta”, its still one of the strongest M+ specs. In S1 raiding it was one of, if not the, strongest burst AOE specs in a raid with a lot of burst AOE. In S2 raiding its ST damage, in a raid with mostly ST damage, is within a reasonable margin from the average, and its AOE abilities keep it strong in M+.
They have done a good “enough” job at balancing Windwalker this expansion so far, at least statistically. My issue comes with the fact that they’ve given “the people” what they want in a higher APM spec by adding procs and more resources, but missed that the underlying foundation of the spec is not designed to be a high APM spec.
Right now we have a Mastery that’s designed to make us plan, but an APM that gives us no time to plan it. We have a dual resource system designed to make us manage it, but have talents and procs that give us so many free casts and resources that we have big chunks of time where resources are irrelevant.
WW is stuck between two worlds, the old and the new, and its fighting itself to pick one.
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WW is currently the class with the lowest max io for all possible dps. The only arguably worse classes would be maybe hunter/lock. Not sure what you’re basing “strongest M+ specs” on
Anyways,
How is the “foundation of the spec” not designer around higher APM? The entire reason the spec presses buttons more often is the CDR introduced to BoK. That is a rather foundational reason that WW has busier globals. Without stomp or serenity it still has plenty of downtime if you’d like to go that route.
Mastery has nothing to do with planning. It is almost physically impossible to break mastery - even double casting tiger palm is basically inconsequential, so the only real potential to break mastery is BoK back to back, which generally just wont happen. WW could have an entirely different mastery and play effectively the same besides allowing quicker resource dumps in AoE.
Also, saying resources are irrelevant is very misinformed. The only time resources are really irrelevant is around serenity windows, which is rather expected. Outside of Serenity windows a player should almost never be energy capping outside of rare edge cases. Chi is also almost never over capped besides during serenity windows from GoTD/OPS.
The reason resources may “feel” irrelevant is that key spenders will get spent somewhat on CD regardless, but optimizing around ToTM resets and BoK cdr is very much a significant expression of skill that requires good resource management.
Additionalyl damage windows are designed in such a way that damage outside of key windows doesn’t feel as impactful, and pooling around ToTM resets is something almost nobody does, but I can assure you it does matter.
Considering I do more damage than anyone else in the world on this spec, I’d consider myself somewhat of an expert in how it plays when done correctly.
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Wow man that’s impressive. I guess I’ll just shut up. I didn’t realize I was in the presence of a god which totally makes my opinion not important.
Yes I time 20-22 keys and honestly its hard to find a group if you aren’t meta.
And yeah you are right I don’t have a m sark kill, because I don’t want to invest the time into what it takes to be in a guild of that caliper.
So now that you are done giving all your prerequisites to why your voice is the only one on the forums that should be heard.
I’m not saying that monks could not use a look at, however I am saying that we are currently in a state where we can clear all content in the game. You focus on the numbers, the numbers don’t really matter if you are able to do the content period.
But right now I’m sitting at 2800 across 3 toons, I’ve all but stopped raiding for this season. And I spend about 15 mins looking for group on my paladin, shaman, and monk until I get bored and log off because those higher groups want meta specs.
With that logic, I guess paladins tanks, resto shamans, and windwalker monks all need to be reworked in a way that I can find a group inside of 5 mins to prevent me from logging off.
Also I guess because I haven’t really pushed 25s or greater that again I’m not seeing this whole aspect of the game that you are seeing.
But then again there really isn’t any point to doing higher than 20, other than bragging rights, which your whole last post was about you knowing a thing or two about monks…
I would calmly say if you want to stroke your epeen then reroll a meta spec then you could go to Druid, shadow priest, mage etc forums and talk about how amazing you are and how good life is
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so you’ve accomplished everything there is to do in pve in this game and you think ww is bad
if the 5% buff that you give to phys classes appeared on logs like aug evo you’d be in an even better position.
could it use better mastery scaling? sure
but the class plays fun and can clear all the content. not to mention it’s incredible in pvp
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I don’t feel like because you are the world highest dpsing monk makes your voice anymore important than anyone else.
Two things can be true, you can be really good at pressing a total of 9 buttons in the right order at the right time, and be ability to get the best gear in game. While at the same time not completely understanding how a single change could or could not make the class to op, or totally gut us.
With that being said if the game tailored to your personal request your dps would go up, possibly but we would still be on the forums here debating about the changes that are needed.
The truth is not everyone plays to your level, I would be a safe bet to say that only about 10% of monks play at your level.
If we need adjustments those adjustments need to be made so the average player can do better. And at this point in the game we can clear all content. Which is what matters.
You and the other guy fixate on your number, and your dps being so impressive, and why your opinions are more important than those you honestly feel are below you.
Again would I like monks to get some minor adjustments, sure. Do they need it, no. However, I would like them to change some things to fit into the standard ideal of the monk.
I do think we can all agree the set bonus is meh next season, just like shaman set bonus was meh this season.
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Frankly you just don’t understand what is being discussed or what you are talking about.
He is sharing a perception that the spec has moved away from “planning”. This is simply not true and just reads as someone who can’t keep up with changes to the game over the past 6-8 years. The spec plays almost the same way it has for years and years. I would know this as I have played it at a high level for almost that entire time period.
My level of play is relevant here, as we are discussing what optimal play patterns look like. “Planning” has never been relevant for casual content, so it just isn’t particularly relevant to this specific discussion. If someone is going to give feedback that just indicates they aren’t playing well while expressing it as if it is an immutable truth, I am going to disagree.
I already laid out how his mastery argument is non-sensical. The “procs” argument also makes little sense, as WW doesn’t really have “procs”. There is minor chi gain from GotD and power strikes, but removing those resources doesn’t dramatically change the play style. It would simply mean even more of your damage in concentrated into Serenity windows, which is already a very very high damage share.
Essentially what he’s saying is that he’s unhappy with how concentrated the damage profile is, and perceives that as creating a “low skill” spec given it means the standard rotational flow is less impactful than it has been historically where WW had a smoother damage profile. He blames “procs” and “resources” for this which is entirely inaccurate.
The real reason WW dmg is concentrated is the following:
- Keefer’s
- CTD - Neltharion’s class trinket or other on use trinkets
- Combining the above with stomp/serenity to do very large damage in very short periods
- Mastery conversion being undertuned leading to versatility and thus external power sources taking up a significant share of damage to a larger extent than many previous expansions.
Removing resources does nothing to accomplish his goals, and if anything works against them. There is practically nobody less qualified than me to gauge how the spec works with incremental changes and how it plays. I don’t say that to ego, it simply just is.
What windwalker really needs is a rework on the sides of the talent tree. Removing stomp and nerfing/removing keefers would open up the design space dramatically. We would no longer just do 10% additional damage with external power sources, more budget would be shifted into core spenders, and cooldown stacking would be a less significant share of damage. This would lead to more rotational relevance, lower the amount of global stuffing and “APM”, etc.
These changes would also make the average player better, as I doubt they are optimizing around Keefer’s/Stomp properly and playing burst rotations flawlessly like I do consistently. From a cursory log check Babylonius makes far more errors in burst windows than I do, so nerfing the relative strength of these would perhaps equalize the damage differential to an extent.
The set bonus for 10.2 would actually be decently strong if stomp did not exist! It turns out we are too global locked due to stomp to press more buttons. Reducing resources does nothing or even hurts.
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Perhaps your are right, I don’t know and honestly I’m not paid to look that in depth to it. I enjoy wind walker as is and can clear everything I want to clear.
I hate stomp and statue, not because I’m global locked, but more because I feel like those two single abilities disrupt what I personally feel a monk should be about.
I also feel touch of death ( which I don’t really spec into ) takes up far to many talent points to warrant ever using, however if they put a proc on touch of death I would be okay with that single change but more from a fun stand point than a dps stand point.
I just don’t think monk needs a complete rework to be semi competitive.
Here’s the thing. WW doesn’t need a complete rework to be semi competitive. We are acceptably competitive, but not what i would consider good levels of being relevant.
HOWEVER, the monk trees absolutely NEED to be looked at for it to not feel terrible to play. We aren’t all gonna agree on what needs to be done, but there are a few common threads that are generally considered to be massive oofs. Some of which you named. Statue, Stomp, and ToD talent bloat are all points of contention.
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would love to pick your brain more on disc. add me up, tomatosaucin
i agree statue is terrible. i kind of like stomp after all this time honestly. ToD talent bloat is pretty bad, it’s why i stopped playing ww s1. i just choose not to mess w the tod sniping talents and still do some solid damage, as i’m sure most do.
BDB should simply get removed or have the flavor changed to the actual class. i think it’s terrible. they could do same thing w faeline stomp, bring it more in line w monk class fantasy and have you commit less points to get to the same place.
The irony of you telling one of the most knowledgeable WW players that they aren’t up to snuff on recent changes is hilarious. These forums never cease to amaze.
they’re delaying tot timewalking so all the lucky ww who friend stack can throwback to rune of reorigination pump.
babs is a feral or a dh he doesnt play ww ;p
kidding ofc
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Looks like you’ve drawn the attention of the cult. I was wondering how long until they showed up.
These debates are not for me anymore. Enjoy this battle and I’ll enjoy the popcorn.
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For what its worth, I assumed I was not the person that Kittenkutie was referring too in their last message since it wasn’t a reply to me and it quoted “low skill”, which I didn’t say in my last post. Seems like a problem of misattribution.
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Given I am the best WW player in the world I don’t find it ironic, but cest la vie
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