new voj’s only victory is removing 4hopo spenders, we take that W
2 Likes
Look at today’s changes, there are certainly good ones, like the dots being rolled, but look at all the RNG being loaded in, this spec starting to become a casino.
- Radiant Glory: Wake of Ashes grants you [Crusade: Crusade for 12 sec / Avenging Wrath for 10 sec]. Your other damaging abilities have a chance to grant you [Crusade: Crusade for 6 sec / Avenging Wrath for 5 sec].
The first half of this talent is fine but look at the back half, this is just Vision of Perfection all over again.
- [Mastery: Hand of Light] chance to blast the target with Light halved.
More RNG, now if you have 40% mastery you only have a 20% chance to hit with it?
- [Boundless Judgment] now also has a 50% increased chance to trigger Mastery: Highlord’s Judgment.
More RNG.
This is actually getting crazy and needs to be addressed NOW!
2 Likes
The talent tree was updated and WoA now has a new talent to grant Wings for X secs. lol
WoA now does like 10 things with a button press… this is so stupid. 
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I can’t tell if they raised the CD on Wings to 2m now or its just tooltip errors, but it would make sense if they were doing this Vision of Perfection/WoA giving wings type stuff.
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Could be trying to add Sanctified Wrath back, instead of the Crit increase. Imo this isn’t a bad change as I think AW needs to do more in today’s day of WoW. (Compared to things like Meta.)
But this new tree looks pretty bad. They keep avoiding the main issues and if they want WoA to be core to the spec/tree, they shouldn’t keep adding it’s empowerments to the capstones.
WoA already does too much.
- Does AoE damage
- Generate 3 Holy Power
- Apply a DoT
- Stun Demons
- Increase DoT damage (Burn to Ash)
- Chance to trigger Searing Light (Searing Light)
- Cast AW (Radiant Glory)
- Cast Sun’s Avatar (Herald)
- Cast SoV (Templar)
- Cast Sunspot (Herald)
- Gain Divine Purpose (Herald)
It’s objectively too much stuff happening within the span of 3 GCDs with WoA, DT + Divine Resonance, Hammer of Light and Empyrean Hammers.
We had this problem in BFA - SL. There’s a spectrum of “these buttons feel good to press” to “these buttons do everything” and we’re quickly falling back into “these buttons do everything” territory. =/
Continuing the discussion from Feedback: Paladin Updates:
Also, why is this necessary with Swift Justice? Remove this irrelevant talent first and just bake the cooldowns into the spells baseline…
2 Likes
The CD increase is not necessary. Just remove all the generator Cd reductions from dusk/dawn/divine hammer and it fits smoothly in the rotation. We are not rogues, we should not be striking that fast.
I disagree with this, I think Wings is a pretty fine CD because of how it currently lines up for all the other burst options. If they wanted to do anything to make wings better, they should have baked FR into it since there’s already a pretty sizable amount of people that are using the macro to use it on AW cast on live.
I have multiple issues with Ret, and this is coming from someone who thought SL Ret was pretty cringe, but the 10.1 Paladin made Ret one of the best melee specs in the game.
TLDR - This is a complete divergence of what makes the current version of the spec so fun.
-There’s more RNG, and losing control on a spec that has some set up and a lot of clean pay off
-AW/FR both lining up with the 1 minute feels good, the gameplay loop feels really incredible. There’s a nice mini-burst that happens every 30 seconds from Wake.
-Stacking so much onto Wake adds some issues in keys that currently don’t exist
–I’m incentivized to use the mini burst on CD and there’s not much of a target restriction on doing so
–Using Wake on CD on lower pack pulls can clip wings uptime
–Delaying wings can push the FR/Toll window burst back
–Pushing the FR/Toll window back pushed the AW/Crusade window back
–Delaying Wake now effects Crusade uptime, which slows down the spec
I don’t particularly think it’s a bad niche to have a spec that more favors being in combat and the group chain pulling constantly; but this swing is to far in that direction. IMO if I were to call out what makes Ret feel so great right now in keys is it’s a very bulky and utility heavy spec that’s extremely versatile in keystones. It’s only issue was choosing between ST and AOE, last build addressed that a lot.
With this build, the versatility aspect is almost completely gone. It has a very specific niche of staying in combat for as long as possible, having our CD’s tracked by the tank to attempt to optimize them, and depending on tuning likely having to maintain an extremely high effective uptime on Crusade.
We’re about to have the melee version of the Elemental Shaman/Fire Mage problem, other people are going to require to have a good understanding on how Ret works for Ret to be able to pull out some good numbers.
4 Likes
I don’t mind where they put it but it does… a lot…
I don’t like the SoV/DProt change but if they crackdown on everyones defensive I’m ok with it.
Probably back to 2min if we get a 10sec each Wake.
As it is it functionally gives more uptime on AW.
From wake alone its still 26sec a minute then it’s another 23 from AW(on 2min) so we’re always gonna be in AW with adding the random procs too?
Does this mean AW is getting nerfed/changed?
Does the uptime gets added up on proc and on WoA use if AW is already running?
Because it’ll feel pretty bad to get a proc that doesn’t add to the timer…
And also does AW triggers AFTER WoA? Meaning Wake doesn’t get the damage increase?
That’s still doable with what they did considering WoA gives AW.
I think overall it will still feel good but as you and others pointed out, WoA just does soo much now its insane.
The change is… interesting.
The way I see it is, if WoA already gives AW, it means I can be picky as to when I use the true AW CD.
As it is in DF, I don’t often delay WoA/AW/FR/DT use because if they end up desynced it doesn’t feel good.
Only time I do is on dungeons like Atal Dazar on last boss adds, or Brackenhide atm for totem on last boss too.
Now delaying WoA for those instance might feel worse considering all it does.
Why not put some of those on other CD’s?
Why not make FR a 30sec CD with appropriate tuning and maybe bake these interaction into it and it’s capstone since they are lacking?
Idk, just spread the goods a little.
For the few people that didn’t get the message that Ret was/is designed around us picking WoA, this should be a clear message.
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I’m not sure I understand this correctly?
Continuing the discussion from The War Within Alpha Development Notes:
It was my understanding that AW/Crusade is just completely replaced by Radiant Glory and not granting access to both the proc AND the on use.
It would be:
- Avenging Wrath: Might - 1 min cooldown - Crit Buff
- (Maybe Sanctified, but that’s probably a talent tree bug)
- Crusade - 2 min cooldown - Haste Buff
- Radiant Glory - WoA/Damage Proc - Inheriting from above
Gives you a choice of having strong, on demand burst vs the RNG Awakening/Vision of Profection.
Well, WoA wings would still line up for your burst, when it is already most notably tied together. This would simply make the rotation 1 less button to press (or macro) and could *** make something like ES more viable as they would have the 30 sec matching cooldowns.
The issue I have with Avenging Wrath in general, is that it’s quite the boring cooldown in modern day WoW. It’s been “throw the hammer” for 20 years and it’s not that that’s the sole issue, but Hammer of Wrath has become something of a dud ability.
Hammer of Wrath has become a clone of Judgement, right down to proc’ing Mastery, and further limits build customization.
- Avenging Wrath + Radiant Glory + Vanguards Momentum + Adjudication (new mastery on HoW) + Blades of Light (HoW increased damage)
Herald Ret Paladins have quite literally zero customization options within the build.
However, Sanctified Wrath (the Holy damage explosion) would just be another DH clone:
Demonsurge
Requires Demon Hunter
Metamorphosis now also increases current and maximum health by 5% and Armor by 20%
While demon form is active, the first cast of each empowered ability induces a Demonsurge, causing you to explode with Fel energy, dealing (100% of Attack power) Fire damage to nearby enemies.
So, I’m not sure the answer… I’m just saying the +20/20/20 buff and the ability to throw HoW alone as become quite stale, and considering the emphasize put on HoW in the TWW, making a few too many “mandatory” talent choices.
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Change for change sake it seems, also just making sure improved judgement is never picked.
Depending how it synergizes with Highlords Wrath, 40% mastery would give 45% chance for additional hit?
Still w/e in terms of our damage, it’s a tuning nub for SL and DA and we don’t know what goal they are trying to hit with that in term of PPM.
I wanted to touch on that.
And I’m just gonna type what I’m thinking as I go because I don’t know what to think of this.
It is very hard to tell if this CD even matters.
For having played around with TS, I always had something to press.
It has 2 charges and its a combo so each charge represent what a normal CS is in terms of buttons presses and HP generation.
We never really wanted to press CS 2 times in a row unless we had nothing else to do before anyway.
So this whole TS thing hinges on us WANTING to press it twice (aka strong enough to warrant it).
To get back 2 charges of CS we would have waited 12 sec* anyway if we pressed it twice.
TS 1 charge give us 2CS worth of HP in 8 sec…
So we’re in this weird spot because if it is strong enough to warrant pressing it twice, does it become automatically stronger to press it 4 times?
And if so does THAT warrant a longer CD to make space for other abilities?
Does swift justice has the wrong abilities on it?
If you take CSAA it seems wasted because you lose half of what it does.
CSAA existing, shouldn’t swift justice be CS alone and Light justice be BoJ and Judgement?
Since you’d want to cast them more if you remove CS from the rotation?
And then wouldn’t it make more sense to have TS just be that stronger CS with a DoT you try to maintain and no longer be a combo and keeping to CD relatively low?
Those changes really are racking my brain…
Ohh yeah, I didn’t see the context comment on the Alpha thread.
I kind of read quickly the change note and went to see the tree on WoWhead and tooltip didn’t say it replaced.
Makes more sense now.
Basically similar uptime on AW, Divine Wrath gains even more value.
The value of Crusade is… unknown?
Does it even give enough time to ramp it to 30% on 13 seconds?
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Yeah that’s always the issue I ran into as well. TS just doesn’t fit really well into the rotation and I honestly don’t see much of a difference between this new TS and BoJ + Expurgation.
- 2x charges
- Deals X holy damage
- Generates 1 HP
- Applies a DoT
The mindset behind making Hammer of Wrath into a Judgement Clone and Templar Strike into a Blade of Justice clone just feels really misguided.
Hammer of Wrath should feel like an impactful button, like Necrolord’s Hammer, for the whole class and not just another button to spam during wings. Something that makes all these HoW proc talents like FV, feel good.
Templar Strikes (CS) should just be changed to Fires of Justice, and the effects of Templar Strikes baked into Improved Blade of Justice. Making the resets on Art of War that much better due to wanting to hit BoJ more frequently for the added burn effect.
- Crusading Strikes vs Fires of Justice (CS Talent)
- Templar Strike vs Holy Blade (BoJ Talent)
While I understand the Blizz Executives could be forcing the Devs to keep Paladins the braindead BM hunters of Melee. It just feels like they’re giving Paladins an identify crisis for the sake of it.
Probably. The fact that they mentioned Sun’s Avatar and called it “Radiant” Glory probably means it was intentional to aid Herald Paladins. Keeping in mind Herald gain Divine Purpose when they use WoA and don’t need to press a 5HP spender.
So right there you’re getting 2 back-to-back finishers and any procs or Divine Resonance rolling, you’d probably get close to the 30% quite quickly. And as always, that duration number could change, so that’s kindof whatever.
I wish I could be a dual 1 handed sword templar Paladin. Would be fun
It does but Sun Sear makes them create a DoT on crit, so you still might prefer the crit buff.
Also, Burn to ash interaction with crit…
Also, would the random proc of AW trigger Sun’s Avatar?
Meaning we’d get dawnlights much more frequently over the course of a fight?
Does activating WoA create 4 dawnlight if it replaces AW + the spenders creating more?
Holy… that’s… pretty big for herald.
From the wording it sounded like it did. From my understanding, it feels like there is literally no downside to this talent as we already pair Wings with WoA, FR, and DT on those 30 second intervals.
Maybe you want wings to last longer for a Lusted phase, but that would probably be off set by the HoW damage for Templar and easily offset for Herald with Sun’s Avatar.
Additionally;
- Templar gives a Haste buff when you cast HoL
- Herald gives a Haste buff when you apply Dawnlights.
So idk if the goal is to make Wake of Ashes feel like Eye Beam. You press this 45 sec cooldown button, deal crit damage, gain a haste buff, proc wings.
But… you still have Metamorphosis with Eye Beam. So idk if this is going to have that same feeling or if it’ll just come off as one of those “All in One Button Macros” we’ve seen with DKs over the years.
That’s why I think there needs to be more character and identity within the spec. It’s DH without the flow and identity of movement incorporated into the spells.
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A few things I worry about with the change to be proccing wings.
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I feel like we will be balanced around permanent wings uptime. We will be at 105% of a class with wings post balancing, but without them we will be at like 60% of a wings especially with herald + crusade is basically permanent max haste + lust + PI.
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removal of 1 minute wings. I feel like 1 minute wings is the best thing to happen to ret in the entirety of the rework, having everything line up with 1 min CD’s is so nice and I would hate to have to change that.
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with so much being packed into wake of ashes I feel like the shine is being taken away from other cooldowns.
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with so much being packed into wake I feel like they may increase the CD to 1 minute, which would kinda be awful. Having a 30 second burst HP option that gives 2 hero talent things be moved to 1 min just seems like it would nerf the 2 new hero talents.
4.5) I feel like 1 min would wake would be fine, but only if we kept everything at 1 min. But if everything is 1 min. Why do we need to have 5 seperate cooldowns at one minute? I would much prefer if that everything was 1 min that FR, DT, etc be baked into 1 button. So that wake gives hp spender damage, max HP, and increased the damage to compensate.
Seperate note can we change the camera option change that wake is getting? Or at least make it a setting? A lot of the time I’m not directly looking at mobs because I’m checking where pvp players are, where patrols in M+ are, where adds in raid are spawning at etc.
I think the issue with this is more-so on the positioning and strength of FR/ES, Executioner’s Will and Divine Auxiliary.
FR and ES should be more of an end capstone along the side of the left side of the tree and feel a bit more optional than it currently is.
So an example layout of our cap stones would be:
Far Left:
- Divine Auxiliary (updated*) → Executioner’s Will (updated*) → Final Reckoning/ES
Middle Left:
- Adjudication → Blades of Light → Divine Arbiter
Middle Right:
- Seething Flames → Burn to Ash → Radiant Glory
Far Right:
- Penitence → Burning Crusade → Searing Light
Divine Auxiliary and Executioner’s Will would need to change into different passives, but the goal would be to make all those talents better options at the bottom of the tree.
Given the changes to HoW + Mastery, FR nerfs and Divine Arbiter buffs, for Mythic+, we may completely skip FR and just go Searing Light + Divine Arbiter, making the FR/ES 3 capstones obsolete.
BYEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAo0SSp0SCJRpItAAAAAAAAAAAAgUSJRLABgCAAAAAAAAA
(Keeping in mind the snowballing interactions of more wings = more HoW = more DA procs.)
We don’t know if its being removed, could be a typo from alpha.
Radiant Gory is a Capstone talent of Wake that replaces AW so the option might still be there but as Zaim says, there’s no downside to it, it’s just generally more AW uptime.
Yes
I don’t think they will.
Yeah, I don’t know where this is coming from.
I can see a type of situation where you would but I feel like that’s just gonna be more annoying than helpful.
That’s the other thing.
Maybe Crusade should be changed?
A 5hp spender would give 5 stack but you wouldn’t want to use HoL on 0 stack because it doesn’t give you the damage bonus.
So it gives way to this weird flow where you’d WoA with Crusade then try to rush 3/4 spenders + HoL, feels bad to me on paper.
Maybe if the stack did something else?
Something akin to ES mechanic?
Like the more stack you accumulate the more damage is done at the end of crusade with a light blast or something.
Or your first basic spender is made that much stronger when crusade ends for 1 hit next time you use it.
Idk, this specific “gaining momentum” theme of crusade doesn’t seem to quite exactly fit with what Ret is becoming.
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Personally, I don’t think Crusade is going to stand a chance vs Might. With more access to DA (again through HoW+Mastery+Adjudication) along with wanting to hit Hammer of Light and Light’s Deliverance (Templar’s DA). You will want that upfront loaded damage 99.9% of the time.
IMO, Radiant Glory isn’t a bad talent, it just should be placed vs Crusade, replacing AW:Might.
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Wake of Ashes → Seething Flames → Burn to Ash
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Radiant Glory vs Crusade → Divine Wrath
- Avenging Wrath: Might deleted
The stat stick buff isn’t that interesting and since we are gaining Haste from our Hero Talents, now would be an interesting time to update Wings across the board, tbh.
Updating Crusade to whatever.
Maybe Crusade is 1 min cooldown, gives all stats over 20 seconds. Maybe it gives you a randomized proc Blessing like the Deathbringer’s Will trinket. Idk
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Idk man I was watching a lvlden video and he was up to 112% haste idk man seems pretty beefy.
2 Likes
I love radiant glory, though I think the proc is a bit over kill…
Just buff the wing duration from wake wings if anything.
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