WW Ret Changes Alpha 4/25

Classes Paladin
1

I love that Vanguard of Justice changed, 4 HP spenders are gross, however this talent seems very awkward, why do you want us using AOE spender in a ST fight?

I don’t like Judge, Jury, and Executioner change at all, now I’m fishing for/depending on RNG for procs and having to weave a ST spender in AOE fights.

I think Ret would be better served by just making VoJ a cleave talent for up to 3 targets on TV/FV/JV. I’m not sure what to do withJJE, but having it do something to empower DS would be better.

3 Likes
2

Sounds like additions to the DS proc build to me.

Nice

Also we don’t need fv/tv to cleave, DS is our cleave.

3

Cleave is 2-3 targets, DS is WORSE on 2 targets and BARELY better on 3, we do need CLEAVE because our spec sucks at it and almost shouldn’t be brought to fights like Council of Dreams.

1 Like
4

Do you not put talent points in ire or tempest???

5

That doesn’t solve the problem either.

6

With aoe judgement, proc buffs, and ire/tempest ds does a hefty lot of damage.

1 Like
7

Wouldn’t that immediately apply to the DS from Empyrean legacy in which case its seamless?
And those stacking DS buff might account to something with Ire too.

Really you don’t? why?

FV is more than twice the damage of DS with jurisdiction and Blade of light, so it’s a damage increase in pretty much all scenario because DS has a soft cap at 5 targets.

It still in a spot where we don’t really path down to anyway while adding something more interesting than a flat stat increase which doubles as a niche talent for 2/4 targets fights.

It’ll change the rotation a bit from just casting DS in cleave and it should also empower DA in AoE since 4 FV should give 4 DA stacks.

I only see positives from this.

Strictly if you don’t take Tempest, if you do it’s ahead FV in all scenarios.

FV 179% *1.10 (jurisdiction)*1.05 (blade of light) = 207.11%
DS 93% + 20%*93%(18.6%) (tempest)= 111.6 *2 (targets) = 223.2%

8

i mean i think the intention is to make empyr legacy ds do more damage to be a competative combo compared to bov. while also giving you more heft to ds when more than one target appears. so you fv main target, ds adds, repeat. its a option compared to jjj

While also buffing it for herald without touching herald nodes

9

Yeah I guess, but is that really worth a talent point, 19s of that buff does nothing.

That talent is the worst offender, now you gotta track another buff and keep track of how many targets you are hitting.

Pretty sure not using ES on 2 targets is a DPS loss and if you are using ES why would you be taking Tempest, and when using ES why would you hit DS when it’s not going to contribute as much as FV to ES.

Either way the better solution is simply making VoJ a cleave talent you take when hitting up to 3 targets but no more than that.

1 Like
10

It will be a light up proc, just like Legacy and DP.

You don’t have to track the # of targets, it will virtually never deal less than DS.

It’s 207% on 4 targets, that’s 828% damage.

For comparison DS has a soft cap at 5 targets so that’s 111.6*5= 558%
Tempest isn’t target cap but that’s only 18.6% so for DS to be better you’d have to hit ((828-558)/18.6) 15 more targets.

This situation doesn’t really happen.

True
It’s 30% additional damage on all your damage that hits the ES target so that’s a 269% total FV value.

If there is 2 targets consistently and you use DS with tempest instead, it’s a 145. + 111= 256%.

But in TWW ES is 20% now so it’s a 3% difference
FV - 248%
DS - 134+111=245%

But on 2 targets you might switch off of ES to depending on sims so idk.

Idk I didn’t dislike using DA in aoe once in a while which would play into my next DS

11

Really like the changes, I think it’ll allow for some moderate skill expression when taking the two new talents in combination with each other.

1 Like
12

I would agree if there weren’t maybe 1 cleave fight a tier. Outside of that this talent is a gimmick and not necessary, better ways to solve the problem of dog cleave.

13

Well vanguard will give us some form of priority damage too?
Like, right now, if there is a big target and a bunch of mobs, you either loose DS damage on the pack or you don’t focus the big add.

With Vanguard, you can weave them and not loose too much damage, if you take both you’ll have an AoE FV almost half the time.

The more I think about it, the more I kind of like the implication of it.

1 Like
14

Idk, JJE is just bad to me, shouldn’t be weaving FV and DS in any situation, it also is just a 40% chance, so now you are at the mercy of RNG, and you still will have to count targets because eventually DS will overtake it, especially with Tempest it’s not capped.

VoJ is only acceptable because it removes 4 HP spenders, which feel awful. It’s still a very meh talent as the buff is wasted for 19s if you’re using Empyrean Legacy.

Thinking about it makes JJE even worse, because our mastery now has an RNG factor also, so like during AOE packs if you get no procs you will feel awful and if you get procs damage is probably going to be too high or bursty and you pul threat and just fall over.

1 Like
15

It’s a straight up addition, mastery does the same but more, I don’t see what’s wrong with that?

That’s what I meant when I said its a bit of priority damage too.

You can use it to buff the legacy DS once every 20sec but you can also weave FV and DS in AoE if you have a priority target.

If you weave them you FV will be aoe almost half the times (40% chance).

That also mean rush of light can have some AoE value if FV can get some use in AoE/Cleave.

That’s all depending on tuning ultimatly but the gameplay implication are interesting.
Especially if those addtionnal FV do increase DA stack count to.

And that’s not to mention if they also each count for a stack for templar as well (which I doubt if im being honest).

2 Likes
16

Did you play during Nyalotha? RNG deciding how much DPS you do is garbage. Those times you low roll and get no procs will just feel terrible, I feel like it also puts a limit on the top DPS you can do because if you just high roll you will do way too much damage. If you care about logs it also makes it not feel competitive when someone is beating you by simply being lucky rather than good. I’m not sure how much the damage boost to Judgments will be but if its a significant amount it will create problems.

It’s just not needed, I’d rather it did something cool with DS, like now your every 3rd DS continues pulsing for 3s or something along those lines. It doesn’t do anything to make the gameplay better, it’s awkward.

17

I’m looking at JJJ now, Seems a bit Op compared to it’s choice node which as a CD placed on it. I wonder if blizz might put a CD on the proc or remove the CD on the other choice node to make it competitive.

1 Like
18

The proc is 120% damage as of now and follows mastery % for the proc chance.

I don’t see it like that.

I see it as a mechanical way for them to increase the potency of certain capstones to bridge the divide between ST/AoE builds and also add a sliver of additional scaling to mastery as to help the scaling of the spec in general, with the other changes they made.

The judgement proc can proc Searing Light, which very few abilities could trigger in ST scenario before.
This will help SL do more damage in ST.

It also adds a stack of DA, which can be fine in AoE/Cleave if only we could be more consistent at triggering which this interaction helps coupled with the change they SEEMED to have made to how to stacks are gained.

Its fair to not like it.

You mean against Empyrean Power?
That’s not a really “CD”, it’s 1/10 of a second on a 5%/15% proc chance on CS.

You’re right that the power imbalance is pretty wild though but it’s not because of the CD.

My main concern over those 2 talents is that, while JJE will mix the rotation on AoE because an AoE FV will be far superior than DS simply from the talent regardless of everything else, VoJ at 2points doesn’t make DS strong enough to use on ST unless you’re gaming on all the procs it can trigger assuming you’re playing Herald as well.

But I can really see this being interesting nonetheless, it’ll depend on tuning of course but let me paint a scenario.

You play a “direct hit” build, no burn whatsoever.
A pull is made with a priority target.
Now on live, you’d be using FV and just loose any AoE value.

But now with this build…

BYEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAQAgIaKtSSr0iokkkmEAAAAAAINIJhAJRiUigEQTaNEJhEUK0AAAASiWKpkAAA

(We might take only 1 point on VoJ since the second 1 gives a reduced value compared to the first and we might want Divine hammers with Templar, it’s just an example)

After Hammer of light shenanigans.
Your first FV hit the priority target and trigger both VoJ and Legacy DS, JJE give DS a 40% chance to make your next FV AoE and, you’re in luck, you got the proc.

So next spender is FV again and it hits 4 targets including your priority target, next spender you use DS and it’s 50% stronger so still doing a decent amount on the prio.

By this time, with how the new DA stacks seems to work, you should have a DA proc which you use and deal massive damage to your prio target AND the surrounding mobs.

I mean, it sounds fun to me, it’s subjective of course but all those little interaction between spenders and builders are things I like.

3 Likes
19

RNG makes for a bad dps experience. I’m not sure if you PVE or PVP but think about it like killing a boss for 20 weeks and never seeing the piece of loot you want drop or come out of vault, or in PVP going against your direct counter comp for 20 matches in a row, never winning. You have to pass 3 checks in ST and 4 in AOE to do your most dps, no thanks. I don’t want a flowchart determining whether I can play my best or not.

DA and SL capstones are not the reason for the divide between the builds. Things like ES and FR are the cause of that and they still exist, and so far only FR has had an attempted fix with ST getting a higher modifier than AOE, however ES still hits 1 target and the amount of holy damage Ret will be pumping out is just getting larger while FR still is only spenders.

2 Likes
20

They are very much part of the equation even if they play a lesser role than ES and FR who are both getting nerfed to lessen that swing.

It’s no coincidence that they seem to be adding ways of making both SL and DA more consistent be it through mastery or changes in how they interact with other talents.

When you go with the M+ build and take SL atm, there’s very few spells that will trigger SL in ST, which means you get much less value from it in ST since that instead of proccing 3 times a min, it might be once if you’re lucky.

Meanwhile, DA lack of consistency in stack gain means we can’t use it fully as a cleave/aoe tool on “demand”, there’s no way to time it with adds being there, we just got to hope there are some when we get it.

The stacks it gains with blessed hammer interaction is nice but is not consistent enough throughout a fight.

In TWW we’re losing that interaction but gaining some back with the new mastery effect and also through the change in DA wording that seems to hint at the stacks now being gained through instance of holystrike damage instead of on cast as it is now.
Opening the door for interaction with blessed champion and JJE for DA to be more potent on AoE.

Both of these changes undeniably work toward lessening that gap between the builds.

And I’d be inclined to agree with you if they replaced our mastery completely with a RNG one.

But that’s not what they did.
We literally have the same mastery with the baseline unnerfed with this new interaction added and which seems to only serve the purpose of adding the interactions I talked about above for more consistency.

And to be clear, I’d much prefer if the effect was 100% proc with mastery influencing its damage instead of having a fix damage with mastery influencing the chance to proc.

2 Likes