They aren’t good in PVP and they arent good in PVE ever. Why blizzard do WW like this. THey need more mobility to always be on target and they need karma to be scarier again. unreal
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You’re totally right! All those appearances in MDI, AWC, and the occasional RWF were just figments of our imagination and part of the agenda being pushed by the shadow cabals of Big Monk cultists.
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I miss FoF Stun.
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Maybe we should start a support group. WMA, or Woe is Monks Anonymous
They’re aren’t awful in PVP or PVE. Originally they were another glass-cannon control, mobility, high-damage class. or melee mage, or rogue that can’t stealth.
MW monk is good. But WW needs at least a niche it’s good it. Im glad it seems the new expansion has reduced mobility. WW needs less damaging abilities, but more damage to its core abilities, RSK & FoF.
WW also needs more smaller CC abilities, something like: FoF stun can go away, but it needs to have it’s PVP talent made baseline, it needs to parry all frontal attacks in both PVE and PVP.
Leg sweep should also have a talent where it’s cooldown is only 30-40 seconds.
And WW needs to have access to both ‘Song of chi-ji’ and ring of peace. ‘Song of chi-ji’ could be nerf to compensate, i.e. it no longer moves forward or something like that.
That should fix WW in PVP & PVE.
Karma needs to be fixed to compensate for this as well. It should either be gone, or work better has a brief counter ability, like a warrior’s spell reflect. i.e next enemy ability in the next 3 seconds gets reflected.
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Hell no. Bring back FoF stun, and we can make it everyone else’s problem. This old grudge requires a lot of settling, and I want my pound of flesh.
Yep
The choice node should be between area denial RoP and MoP RoP.
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Sorry when did ww appear in TWW? The Windwalk Within, lol.
I don’t recall one ever being pulled. I recall one mw run in all of season 1, I recall ortemist and like one run by a chinese team in CBM in s2, and s3 I recall pretty much only ortemist again in s3. I do not recall a WW appearing among any of the MDI teams I watched. I’m not saying it didn’t happen but I’m also going to imagine that if it did happen, they didn’t win, and that there was no way the ww could have influenced that. No offense to them, its pretty unremarkable.
As for the race, s2 mw and ww was incredibly overtuned for raid and its overrepresentation, and tuning, resulted in it getting nerfed so severely it basically fell down to C tier and then recieved no buffs outside of the kind like increasing revivals healing to compensate for increasing player health pools. Or some occaisonal tuning that I can remember to windlord sheer or simplifying the spec tree. And most of the issue for WW was thunderlords capacitor, wasn’t it? Or do I remember wrong, it’s been too long. People were posting on the forums here within like a week of the race ending asking if the lightning build was dead with incoming tuning. MW was nerfed every week until even after the race they recieved something likea 25% nerf across the board. Which was never rectified or compensated.
Then in AWC, BanksMW, arguably the very best MW in PvP showed up. You remember the name of his team? I’ll spoil it for you. It was “BuffMW.” There’s actually a number of games where the best MW in pvp is playing against a disc priest and mw is doing 400k dps tops while disc is doing 1m. I do recall an occasional WW upset but this usually lasted one or two rounds before the team moved off of it. It won a surprise round then got stomped. The likelihood they went back to it is extremely low.
In the case of ortemist and banks, all it looks like to me is comfort picks. That’s their main, they’re the best at what they do, so they’re going with it. But no matter what the example is these are all edge cases of extreme rarity. Someone opting to do a round or key on WW is just their personal decision to do for fun. WW basically has never been good in raid from the perspective the general community from what I’ve heard. You occasionally have a mechanic where transcendence is really good and that’s about it.
edit: oh and you would also probably never see a brew master flag runner if there was a battleground competition. It’d be druid or dh, pretty sure, unless brew just had something specific to that season or patch that made it particularly good. Very few immunities to hard cc, good mobility on relatively long cd, nerfed stagger effectiveness, can’t transcend with the flag, aaaaadn i’m sure there’s more people could add. I find it easier to run the flag as mw just cause chiji makes me immune to slows and even that is really tough.
And most the time you will see one monk plugged in to RWF. But the guys running RWF even say that the only reason is mystic touch. Which is why it normally ends up being mw or brew because ww is usually pretty unremarkable in raid for dps. Where as mw won’t really degrade your healing roster by being there and brew stagger has some good uses in raid in particular. But either way the reason a monk gets forced into comp even if they’re mid or not necessary for overpowering a mechanic, is literally just mystic touch.
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The initial point was that WW is always neglected and never good in any content ever, which is an objectively incorrect statement.
Just because it wasn’t top meta 100% of the time in all content in this expansion doesn’t mean it has never been good ever.
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You have to be careful Members of the Peak Cult like to play word semantics to change their statements when proven false. WW has been sat out for a few progressive raids (no one cares about raids on farm) and has been sat out pretty much everything high level in pvp (again exception to rule being the seasons we could leg sweep stun and FoF stun into a paralysis).
The cult likes to take the exceptions to the rule as being the rule. At one point they where arguing WW is viable even if it is bottom 20% in utility and dps. Completely ignoring in a team based game if any spec is low in utility and dps then no one will take it, hence it is none-viable. They then tried to argue well it is not competitive but still viable, which again ignores the entire point that in a TEAM game if one spec is the bottom 20% then it will not be taken and it will not be viable.
This is why Peak is a joke in the pvp community.
Semantics are important, since words have meaning and semantics are how we express the messages we want to say. Just because you can’t understand the meaning of words that you use, doesn’t mean that the rest of us are using them wrong.
Nothing you said in anyway disproves what I said.
WW has absolutely been left out of progression raids, M+, and high level PvP before. But so has just about every spec, so it’s an insane bar to set.
And yes, being in the bottom 20% can still certainly be viable or even competitive. Being 20% behind makes something unviable, being in the bottom 20% is irrelevant if the gap between the top and bottom is small enough.
You can say that we take the exceptions as the rule, but the original post is definitive to “ever”, which is clearly untrue.
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Shut down the discord!
To be fair, compared to most other classes, Monks have been towards the bottom of representation in MDI and AWC in the last like 4-5 expansions. They just don’t have the utility, esp in PVP.
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This argument is so disingenuous. This is literally half the classes at any given time…
Stop making inflammatory replies if you’re going to hide behind an alt. It’s pathetic.
I said in the last 4-5 expansions, so yeah, this TEN YEAR span point in time.
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I don’t think it was ever good? It was accidentally overtuned for like 2-3 weeks in the RWF and was nerfed pretty badly. I have to agree with the other poster because the devs never seem to let monk just be good for a season. They’ll let priest, mage, and to a lesser extent shaman, have a permanent grip on the meta in every form of content for years. But if monk is strong they smite it into the ground. They don’t even aim for bringing it in line with other specs, they look to put it under. Whether it’s over reaction or apathy, I don’t know, but it is a consistent thing that happens to this class. I don’t ever need to check if I’m meta, I just know 9 in 10 chances I’m not, and if I am, I know I won’t be in a few weeks. But I feel like I could role a priests and one of my specs has a very high chance of being meta at any given time since DF started.
I want to say I have no idea what you’re talking about. They aren’t wrong in so much as WW appeared in one RWF (and then was nerfed under the table as a result.) 3 weeks of being good is hardly anything worth talking about. For comparison, WW looked very strong during beta testing for TWW s1 in late DF, and it got nerfed/reworked before anyone ever even got to play with it when TWW released. And by contrast, where some specs take an entire season or expansion(s) to get a slap on the wrist, I’m inclined to agree with OP.
But monk is disproportionately. We’re only thought to be important as a token character for mystic touch or the very rare instance where stagger or transcendence trivialize something (in a way that’s probably not intended by devs.)
And monk feels so bad in pvp. I know this is about ww but I just gotta plug this in here about fistweaver because maybe it applies to ww too: Monk needs an immunity in pvp or a solid way to glue to a target. There is not much you can do but there is nothing that you can say to convince me otherwise. 0 range per hour road trip to kite city punching on air until your knees lock and you ate every cc that ever existed with counterplay options that amount to huffing glue and eating pencil shavings.
I think you put it in the best words.
Half? Wasn’t hunter in this same boat so blizz created hunters mark and keeps buffing the crud out of it all the time to try to make it required? Idk if it’s working tbh I don’t play hunter. I can’t think of them doing anything like that for mw. They tried to increase MT phys damage amp (which didn’t address any problems with monk really) and before that even really got rolled out it got rolled back.
Evoker, Monk, and Rogue are like the 3 least played classes in the game iirc. But rogue sees far more play because of the unique utility it brings. MW sees play when the best one trick pulls up with it, when they’re overtuned (and bound to get over nerfed,) or when you’re just plugging mystic touch in somewhere to fill a raid buff quota. And blizz doesn’t do anything to address that ever. In fact, they reduced our tankiness and utility going into midnight, so this problem persists forever and ever.
What’s monk supposed to be good at? Mobility is the only thing that comes to mind but barring the rare instance where transcendence trivializes a mechanic in raid, mobility is virtually never a game defining thing in of itself. Especially when it’s not paired with other utility or great damage to get even more value out of the mobility. We’re consistently average or below average in the numbers game and we’re consistently ill equipped in utility for modern instance design. You can run very fast, you can run very far, and when you get there you can also do a whole lot of nothing interesting for 0-3 gcds.
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I’m not sure whether its intentional or accidental, but you’re arguing with me on a different topic. The constant conflation of words and what’s being talked about make it difficult to follow.
I’ve written thousands of words on how Windwalker has struggled in PvE for years, spending the least amount of time above the average of any spec except for Retribution Paladins.
However, the original post says:
This is definitively false.
Windwalker was good in raiding in Tomb of Sargeras, Sanctum of Domination, Sepulcher of the First Ones, Amidrassil (after the big buff 6 weeks into the tier), and Undermine. It was also good enough to be brought to the World First Kill on Dimensius due to the perfect bursty nature of Conduit for that fight and neither BrM or MW being worth taking.
The fact that Windwalker was strong those times disproves the assertion that:
I am not a big follower of MDI nor AWC, but I know that Trill and others have played Windwalker at the highest levels several times over the years, and that during Sanctum of Domination, Windwalker was so dominant in MDI that they changed the rules so that you couldn’t stack specs. So, again, clearly they were good at some point in the history of “ever”.
Now, if you want to say that Windwalker spends too much of its time below average, or it is very rarely a “meta” spec, then I would absolutely agree with you.
Spec balancing in Raid has been spectacular for most of Dragonflight and TWW, so even when the colored bars show Windwalker toward the bottom, the gap from top to bottom is very often close enough that the order isn’t actually important.
And, I can wax on and on about the issues with looking only at the order of the colored bars or how only considering the 3 specs that are “meta” in Arena or Mythic+ being “good” means that nearly everyone is “bad”. That’s psychology, and is more about perception than reality. Linguistics and semantics is my area of expertise, so that’s what I can speak to.
When talking about this stuff some people use damage numbers, some use population representation, others use visuals like simply the order of the colored bars.
However, by whatever metric you want to look at, the statement of:
is false. That’s the only thing I have tried to say in this thread.
All you’ve done with this is shown you can’t actually refute the point I made. Gratz, you’ve failed.
How you gonna make points when you not even high enough to play in this expansion?