WW feels like a way worst Retry Pally

Classes Monk
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So, at this point i think Ret Pallys are a way better WW monk, they have a better aoe toolkit, a better Tiger’s Lust, a better Aura for dmg reduction, also they have, also it feels like they have better suvivibility oh and ofc they have a Battle Rez, also if they have horse talented into 2 sec and 2 charges they can even run farther and faster than a ww and since we both share the same type of dispells

Even for cc’s we’re kinda similar, We have paralysis to stop casts they got hammer, we have aoe stun + rop they got blinding light imo we have 1 more cc than retrys and that’s all we’re better than them.

In my opinion at this point what ww needs is getting lust to be viable in m+ comps

Note: all of this point are related to m+ i know those points are not the same for pvp

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I disagree, I think WW has an amazing AoE toolkit, I just think Ret has better survivability.

I don’t think tiger’s lust is necessarily worse than BoF, you get way more movement speed.

I dno, 4% avoidance and 8% increased healing for the group sounds alot better than 3% dr. (most rets don’t even spec into the DR because of ret aura)

Fair enough, but I think WW has pretty good defensives as well, they’re harder to use though.

I don’t think WW has a right to complain about mobility when compared to ret. WW arguably has the best mobility in the game.

Hammer is a stun, para isn’t. Para only works to interrupt casts or incap a target in niche situations, hammer has alot more value.
RoP is such a unique and insane ability I don’t think anything in Ret’s kit can compare.
I don’t know if you can compare leg sweep and blinding light either since one is a stun and the other only works as an aoe stop in M+.

Hard agree

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On the bright side, Brewmaster feels like a better WW.

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Monk is definitely more mobile than wheelchair ret paladins lol

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I don’t think they’re flat out better, but it’s close. Annoyingly so in some cases because they get a legendary.

I don’t think their AoE toolkit is flat out better. However, I do think it’s more consistent than ours. I think most everyone can agree that if we don’t get procs we don’t do big bang bang.

I guess? Certainly depends on situation, but this definitely feels true in PvP.

Close to Heart and the 4% avoidance feels like a difficult comparison to flat 3% from Dev. On one hand, it’s 4% avoidance AND 8% increased healing taken. On the other, it’s also a 4 talent point investment compared to just 1 talent point for a flat 3%. However, they certainly have better externals/group support than us with BoP, Sac, and Lay.

I’d say we’re pretty even in this regard. Shield of Veng is basically a different flavor of Karma. Divine Protection is like Dampen Harm light. Bubble is more consistent than our stuff and can be used to EOD stuff like spiders on Yazma, but we can do the same by stacking CDs.

To be fair, everyone can get a brez this xpac. Theirs’ is certainly more reliable.

Eh… this does feel like a stretch of a comparison. Yes they can go double bigger and harder horse, but we have 2 rolls, FSK, and port. I’d say a better point of argument is that they have easier access to base movement speed in Obduracy. It still amazes me that most WWs’ base movement speed is 100% because our talent tree is so mismanaged and poorly made.

Hard disagree here. Just give WW its guns back. No more Mark cap for MotC. 50% buff to SCK per mark, and convert DoCJ to just free procs of SCK without the 300% damage buff, but let us bank charges (and wholesale delete BDB and its associated talents from our tree so our AoE won’t have longevity). Remove one of the AoE reductions to FoF so that instead of doing 50% to secondary targets and another reduction past 5 targets, it does full cleave to the first 5 (or 8) targets, then 50% reduced past that. Revert the nerfs to SotWL. Revert the nerfs to SEF and Serenity.

Do that and most if not all of that other categories you mentioned will hardly matter because everything will die.

Realistically, the only options are to give WW some kind of utility (like lust or idk something like cloak), modify our damage, or something new that is actually useful. Of those three options, modifying our damage gets the most done with the least amount of externalities into other metrics of content while also probably being the least amount of work that has to be done.

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That’s not really accurate. Different, maybe, but not strictly better.

???

Paladins are literally known for auras.

Different, yes. Better, no.

Paladins don’t have a phys damage amp for groups.

No, not really. They may be able to beat WW or compete in very short bursts of moment, but Steed has a pretty lengthy CD.

How is this a point?

These are not even remotely similar. A better comparison would be Paralysis vs Repentance, difference being Paralysis works on any enemy type.

Blinding Light, last I checked, is an AoE disorient. And Ring of Peace is a very unique piece of CC/displacement in M+, to the point where in some places it can outright enable skips.

Nah.

Do you actually know what the word “viable” means?

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Well, the op was a monumental step in showing they don’t know anything about playing the class properly.

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So this post of ww feels like a worst paladin is more like focused on m+ only, they fact that they can deal a lot of aoe uncapped dmg is just better than ours, just look at the past 3~4 weeks of m+ data ret paladins are doing the most dmg and it’s not because their ST

a better tiger’s lust, here i’m not talking about mobility, but for example, in entangling weeks paladins in general can free 2 people at once, also ours (tiger lust) has 20yrds range theirs have 30, theirs prevent applications of slows and removes them ours only removes them, in everbloom for example you have the blossom that leave the tank with a slowing debuff that makes them take more dmg, we can cleanse that one, but freedom can cleanse it and prevent further applications, also for raiding on tindral you can free 2 players with it while monks can only free 1, and if you have tried tindral on mythic difficulty you know that freedoms are super important to use them on dispell targets, and guess who doesnt have range to dispells the further person, that’s right monks, buut pallys can

While i know paladins are know for their auras, monks also have auras, but our 4% avoidaince while it’s a good aura, it doesnt interact with all the spells/abilities from bosses in m+ for example in Ataldazar you got the last fight where the boss uses soulrend and deals dmg to everyone that doesnt get reduced by avoidance because is a single target ability, everbloom the third boss one could think that cinderbolt storm is getting reduced by avoidance but it doesnt because those are single target bolts, and paladins aura works on all of those because it’s a flat 3% dmg reduction which in my eyes well just makes it better than ours, specially in an environment where you can only get 5 playerrs in it, which one are you gonna take, the one that reduces the dmg to all types of dmg or the one that works on let’s say half of the abilities in m+

i also talked about a better survivability, once again i’m talking mostly for m+, if you go check logs, around 28~30 level keys, there are a lot of monks using Fyrakk’s Tainted Rageheart for example on BRH 29 top 100 monks there are 12 monks using it, againts BRH 29 top 100 ret paladins 1 paladin using it, i know this is not accurate data because most runs are not logged, but you can see a trend here, and well let’s not talk about Waycrest Manor where paladins have 2 free from jail abilities, while we dont, specially because we can’t use defensives while stunned like boomy’s barskin or again, bubble from paladins i think to fix this monks in general just need a bit more of stamina or be able to use a dr while stunned like karma or dampen

the point where i talked about the dispells, is because for certain dungeons you would wanna run some type of dispells, like in everrbloom you want poison dispells because those stingers do a lot of dmg, WM the witches cast diseases and you need to dispell them, etc, well why would you bring a ww monk if you can bring a ret paladin which does the same in this department but he’s better at the others

and my last point here is CC, when you use cc in m+ it doesnt matter how long is lasts, the only thing that matters is that stops the cast/ability that could harm the party, this is why in my opinion paralysis and hammer are similar, because they stop 1 unit from casting or doing anything example, in ataldazar you have the juggernauts which charges towards someone and deals a lot of dmg that’s a cast you can’t kick but can stop with any kind of cc, ret paladins could stun it with hammer and ww monks can use paralysis to stop it, there are a lot of situations like this one, that’s why im comparing paralysis with hammer of justice, becuase it’s a single target stop, and then you got blinding light vs RoP both can stop casts but rop has more utility like making a safe zone and this is the only pro i can see by having a ww vs a ret, becuase on my dungeon pool we have berserkers and stingers in everbloom if you rop your rdps they are safe from the dmg and of those mobs that like to charge into your rdps

one more thing, all of this are some of my experiences trying to pug myself into 0.1% achievement which means doing 28~30, becuase non of this matters if you doing anything below 20, since for 20s comp doesnt matter at all, everything blasts and the lower the dungeon the better ww feels because you blast againts any pack, eeither by getting procs of dance of chi-ji and destroying a pack or by using touch of death on full hp mobs, but when you can’t use ToD on mobs and dont have any cds, is when you notice that you barelly do any dmg untill ToD threshold and the higher the key the worst ToD feels

i would like to hear what everyone else thinks about it

Also if i dont know anything about it i would like to teach me how to fix this problems and how to get better at the game instead of making this comment, i’m available to hear your thoughts about it

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Thinking Paladin has better mobility than Monk pretty much shuts down the entire conversation.

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You think Ret has better aoe… just means you don’t know how to aoe properly on a ww.

You think freedom is better than tiger’s lust… go post this on the pally forums, I could use a good laugh.

You think two charges of horse is better than all of the movement WW has… again, go post on the pally forums. If the previous point doesn’t have me rolling on the floor with laughter, this surely will.

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I disagree, ret does have better AoE, especially burst damage. The only way I see ww doing more than ret is if we get back to back chi-ji procs. I think ww clears ret in smaller pulls like 4-5 targets and ww has higher consistent damage, but there’s no way a ww beats a ret on the first pull in everbloom for example.

I also feel freedom is not better or worse than TL, freedom preventing roots and slows is huge… You can mitigate entire spells with freedom like the big circles in Azure vaults or the pedals in everbloom. TL is better for movement speed.

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mythicstats(dot)com/dps?dungeon=&period=947

So according to mythicstats last week ret paladins did an average of 233k~295k dps on keys and WW 190k~275k dps and this site shows top 1000 runs of the highest key level last week, so it’s either you’re way too good as a ww or you don’t undestand how big is the dps gap between this two

Not really, my point here is that 2 charges of horse travels more distance than 2 rolls + tiger lust + Flying Serpent Kick, of course this is not that relevant since in a dungeon or boss encouter in a raid you don’t need to run in a straight line unless you die lol, usually one dance around the boss and 6 seconds on roll is just better at this, but you get what i’m trying to show here

while i agree TL is not better nor worse than freedom, currently freedom has more utility in m+ and raid, i would like to see TL getting a buff that allows you to use it on a second target and also buff you at the same time, or just prevent slows, even a range buff to 30 yrds to be as usefull as freedom, since movement speed is not that big of deal in a boss encounter or on a dungeon you want utility and that’s why i think freedom is just better, because it’s more usefull to “cheese” some mechanics

i think this is only true when we were running serenity builds on m+ inside our cap dmg as a ww we will pump any pack, but when pulls become bigger like 7+ adds we just lack behind pallys

while i really like the state of ww right now, i think we need some help on our survibility mostly getting more stamina, and doing something with Fortifying brew, but mainly getting more hp i think that would make ww feel better even brew and mw would feel better,

Yeah that’s my poiint we heavily rely on rng while they have consistent dmg, and realying on rng sometimes might feel bad i know almost every class has procs and i undertand that the game needs rng to be somehow fun, but the fact that we as a ww can do between 600k to 1.5m dmg on a big pack, like first pull of everbloom, but dependes 100% on rng kinda feels bad i would like to get more consitent dmg, i like chi-ji procs, but feels so bad when you dont get them and pulls take a lot longer if you don’t get any procs, is like playing with faeline, sometimes you just get unlucky and dont get a reset, which feels even worse

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Ret on average does have better AOE.

That’s not to say WW can’t pump, because it can, but Ret is more…consistent(?) for the average player. A slip up in Ret may hurt, but a goof in the WW rotation will hurt more.