Never thought I’d see someone try to counter criticism of the Forsaken with “But America” but here we are
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I never said anything about justification. That’s a tree you chose to climb all on your lonseome. I’m simply pointing out that utter folly of applying Earth standards to Azeroth when Azeroth has no standards and the ones we have are seldom followed, merely inflicted upon the losers of conflicts.
“I think killing innocents is bad”
“Maybe according to your Earth logic”
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Presumable there are standards. We did have Garrosh stand for warcrimes. Of course justice, like that in the real world seems subjective and only applies to losers of a conflict.
This entire conversation has been about Horde characters/NPCs actions which you are trying to justify with “Warchief ordered it” and “there is no legal framework” as justifications.
Earth standards of what? Morality or Legality? As viewers we can view actions as moral or amoral and Blizzard has established no sort of consistent morality in its world building besides calling anything “bad” as dishonorable.
You think war crimes and morality came into being when the geneva convention came into being? Rules of war have existed since the dawn of civilizations.
It was decided on based on agreements, religion, culture and yeah a sense of morality innate in all people.
That “hey maybe killing defenseless kids is wrong”, they didn’t need to wait couple thousand years for Geneva to figure that out.
You have a very childish view of the world and history.
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In the modern world.
From antiquity to the early modern age the concept of a ‘war crime’ didn’t really exist and the difference in who and when actions are taken against cities, civilians, and anything else was up to the culture of the nation involved.
Azeroth is not a modern world, it juggles medieval societies, zeppelins, tanks, and spaceships into a mishmash of fantasy tropes. And even in the few instances where Azeroth strays into a modern way of thinking (pretty much only the War Crimes novel) it doesn’t create a set framework for how to distinguish what those are.
Wars of Aggression were ‘outlawed’ (heavy quotation there since… Ukraine) by the agreement to the Hague Convention, Chemical Weapons by the agreement to the Ban of the same name.
Azeroth doesn’t really have this except for the case of Garrosh which only applies that the overall leader of a faction (ie Warchief) is held accountable for declaring war.
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When Christopher Columbus was going on his rampage, his atrocities were so disgusting that the King and Queen of Spain summoned him back.
You don’t need a modern world or a United Nations to act with human decency. Yeah human history is full of atrocities and they are recorded as such in history.
Drahliana brought up the modern world. Not me.
She opened herself to this line of argumentation.
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Give me examples. How could there be crimes committed by nations when there are no binding authorities above them? The United States today still doses not recognise the International Criminal Court and African states are threatening to withdraw from it’s jurisdiction because of perceived bias.
Prior to the existence of international conventions, the only rules were “The man with the sword makes the rules.”
Sure. Give me a bit of time.
Well look at that.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_war
A simple google search and frigging Wikipedia has several references of humans codifying what the rules of war are as far back as 4000 years ago with the Code of Hammurabi.
Human Morality and rules of war was not something new that was created in Geneva.
Its been something that we humans have had been experimenting with since civilizations began.
Because America does not want to be answerable to other countries but they do have their own rules and regulations when it comes to war.
Thats why they have a military court. American soldiers can’t go murdering and r-wording anybody they like while stationed abroad. But this is all legalities, you still refuse to talk about the morality of it.
While I will not deny that Colombus led with Tyranny, a quick search says that he was actually imprisoned by the governor of the West Indies and the King and Queen set he and his brothers free. No particular mention of a recall.
In some cases, though you also have the Romans who reported the deaths of civilians and the mass enslavement of others with as much interest as a day’s meal.
What does any of this have to do with the Forsaken invasion of Gilneas
Simple, Ainhin.
Gilneas clearly has vast supplies of oil and natural gas, and also absolutely, definitely, maybe had WMDs, therefore Sylvanas had no choice but to invade.
After all, it is obvious Sylvanas is America and Gilneas is some other country that is not America.
… I think?
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Yeah and as Drahliana showed we don’t always follow the rules.
Back then Romans thought putting a whole country to sword and enslaving them was a swell thing too but they still had their own rules.
They had their own laws and codes, it wasn’t perfect obviously and it was probably broken an innumerable of time in the written sense or the spirit of it.
But the rules did exist. It was applied in one way or another.
Just like today. In our great modern world… it still happens in one way or another despite the “Never Again” motto we are fond of repeating.
But the rules still exist. The morality question of it still exists.
I don’t even get what Drahliana is arguing. That the denizens of Azeroth don’t think its wrong? Well… they sure do think so! NPCs make commentary about it. Faction Leaders make commentary about.
Whichever you want to slice it its not a free for all of carnage in WoW or in our history. There were rules and standards… until the powerful decided “Nah we can ignore it”
If you check the wikipedia I linked you can see as soon as we made those rules of war we started adding exceptions and excuses to allow ourselves the leeway for a “Just war”
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The Geneva convention was originally signed by 12 states.
Swiss Confederation
Grand Duchy of Baden
Kingdom of Belgium
Kingdom of Denmark
Kingdom of Spain
French Empire
Grand Duchy of Hesse
Kingdom of Italy
Kingdom of the Netherlands
Kingdom of Portugal and the Algarves
Kingdom of Prussia
Kingdom of Württemberg
The United Kingdom of Norway and Sweden signed in December.[11] The United Kingdom signed a year later in 1865.[12] The Grand Duchy of Hesse, the Kingdom of Bavaria and Austria signed in 1866 following the conclusion of the Austro-Prussian War.[13] The United States of America signed in 1882.[12]
Who signed anything prior to this? The Code of Hammurabi was a set of laws imposed on Babylon by Hammurabi himself. It was not an agreement signed between multiple nations. It was an omnibus document that included criminal and civil trials and price fixing on medical treatments. It was not a multi-national agreement that the Geneva Conventions are.
More germaine to the discussion, what is the equivalent on Azeroth? What are these rules that everyone was supposed to be following? I certainly did not notice any in the RTS and not even a mention in 15 years of WOW.
Sometimes you need a bit more than “a simple Google search”.
If you bothered to read the Wiki or understand my argument you would see the history of human experimentation with law of War.
Yes Hummurabi and the Babylonians did not sign an agreement with Denmark or Belgium because they didn’t exist.
If your argument is before the Geneva convention there was no Geneva convention then good job. You win this ridiculous line of argument.
I have demonstrated to you that as far back 4000 years ago rules of war have been a thing from one nation, to religion, to culture and its latest version. International agreements in international institutions.
Oh you want to know?
Ok.
War Crimes exist in Azeroth because characters call Garrosh a war criminal and try to hold a trial over it.
Garrosh was proven innocent by Golden’s 5 year old morality level but the court was still held. The case still heard.
Hence Warcrimes exist in Azeroth as a legal concept.
Andiun called the Burning of Teldrassil a genocide.
And he didn’t need the geneva convention to understand, reference and describe the event as genocide.
The unga bunga bunga falvor Orc Saurfang in his brilliant military mind called the Burning a dishonorable act.
He didn’t need Belgium or the Grand Duchy of Baden to come to that conclusion.
Genocide.
Warcrimes.
Are both canon in azeroth. Get over it.
They existed in our world too prior to the Geneva convention and exist now after it though we seem to be very selective on who and when it applies.
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My argument was that there was no such thing as a multi-national agreement prior to Geneva. The Code of Hammurabi is clearly not such. It wasn’t an agreement at all but a codex of laws imposed by Hammurabi on his people and those he conquered.
And again you keep deflecting from the original question.
What is the equivalent of a signed multifaction agreement in Azeroth?
If you can’t answer this question than your argument dies before it can be made.
In order to have crimes you have to have a binding legal standard that both parties are signatories to. Otherwise it’s just a matter of one nation beating another and imposing the penalty for losing.
No your argument was that there is no rules of engagement or standards so Orcs or the Horde can’t be judged by any standards.
You have been proven wrong on every level take the L and reflect on your next trolling strategy.
I have devoted enough time today for your insanity. I am going to finish an email and watch some TV before iftar. If anyone wants to continue this with Drahliana be my guest.
I am tapping out, bye now.
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Who canjudge both the Horde and the Alliance? And on Azeroth the answer has always been that the Victor Punishes the Loser. While there may have been examples of leaders doing self policing such as Garoosh punishing that orc for his attack on the Night Elf Druids of Stonetalon that was an individual initiative.
There are no rules of engagement in Azeroth. There never have been. You insist that they do exist but fail to point out where.
Ok you get one more. Because I am feeling nice today.
I thought this was a discussion on the legality of the invasion of gilneas?