Talking to yourself again I see.
Sure, if your point is that the Blood Elves found out they were spying. That wasn’t my point, though. You quoted my point to respond to it. I quoted you quoting my point. It’s cute how you try to avoid that, though.
It would not change what happened in Burning Crusade.
It would just be another instance of Blizzard not bringing it up because it wasn’t important enough to, again.
Wonder how long until somebody makes a youtube video of burning teldrasil with a lighter.
Maybe even “50 ways to burn Teldrassil”
Just strike a match, patch
Or use a lighter, cur
No need to spare none, hun
Just listen to me
Hold a magnifying glass,
Or pour a bunch of gas
Just use any flame, jame
And set yourself free
The easiest answer is story bending over backwards to satisfy the necessities of the gameplay portion instead of both working in harmony with each other.
In that sense, the Night Elves must suddenly be hostile and hate Blood Elves in order to further convince the Blood Elves that the Horde is the correct decision, because gameplay necessitates the Horde needing a pretty race to solve population balance between the factions, so Blizzard is full willing to conjure whatever nonsensical storytelling it can to make that happen.
Probably as soon as someone makes a youtube video of burning Sylvanas in effigy with a lighter.
You’re the one acting like reading what someone was saying is “headcanon of real life” and pretending like he doesn’t regret it.
But that was exactly what they wanted to find out. Why do you keep insisting that they had to figure out the greater strategic objective for the events to have relevance?
But that’s an absurd standard. Again, Blizzard forgets or simply doesn’t reference things all the time, that doesn’t at all mean it’s not important to the storyline at hand. All you’re doing here is trying to downplay what happened so that the Night Elves look better. What, can I also say that Cenarius got over the Orcs killing him and the Orc/Night Elf contact war is practically never referenced anymore, so it’s not important? Or maybe I should point out how the sacrifice of their immortality ultimately did nothing but delay Archimonde somewhat, so that was irrelevant too. In a few years when the story has moved on, when nobody bothers bringing up Teldrassil in-universe anymore and the Night Elves have to work with the Horde to beat some super evil Void Lord/Shadowland threat, can I also say that Teldrassil wasn’t important because it was just another forgotten stain in an expansion with terrible writing?
Something doesn’t need to get brought up all the time in order for it to be important to the story. Small, one-off things can be important. You make claims like that all the time in fact, isn’t your rationalization for why the Night Elves win at Darkshore built around a bunch of minor, disconnected details in the experience? With the logic you’re using about why the Night Elf incursion doesn’t matter, anyone could dismiss those claims and that evidence out of hand, because it’s all things which aren’t cohesively referenced or brought up elsewhere.
Well, I really did not need to see this…
it was apparently a misunderstanding, and may or may not actually be real.
I don’t regret it, and I’ll call out your headcanon in real life whenever you try to say you’re confident in what people you’ve never met would have published.
Because we’re discussing the story, and if the writers didn’t bother coming up with what the objective for spying was then they didn’t write out a whole story.
It also paints the Blood Elves as complacent, feeling comfortable without even knowing if the Night Elves had achieved their goals or if the Night Elves would take other measures to achieve those goals and the Blood Elves having no strategic means to plan out for the Night Elves when the Blood Elves don’t even know what the Night Elves wanted.
Please. Go check the The Horde Is Better Without Blood Elves thread, where I point out exactly that the Night Elves were in the wrong.
You sure can. Because he sure did.
Chronicle: Volume III at least brings it up, and we will probably see it again in Warcraft III: Reforged.
People can claim that, sure. The Horde is ultimately ungrateful for the sacrifice, after all.
Hah. People are already posting that. Did you miss the “When are you going to get over Teldrassil?” thread?
People dismiss those claims of mine all the time for exactly that reason.
I was referring to the writer. It’s not headcanon to say he regrets it when he posted something which heavily suggests what he does.
But that’s just bare speculation on your part. We have no idea what the writer’s intentions concerning the Night Elves’ larger goal was, you’re just assuming there was none. At the very least the writers stressed the discovery of their immediate goals very hard, and said goal - Spying - is one which could be useful towards practically any ends.
They were in a bad position to begin with. Figuring out that the Night Elves wanted to spy on them, and then foiling that goal while also killing a whole lot of them was already a reasonable conclusion for the span of the quests. Again, if we assume that we need to know the greater strategic goal of something for it to have import, practically everything in the game is irrelevant.
“Well sure they were wrong, but it didn’t matter anyway”, is exactly what I mean when I say you’re downplaying what they did.
A historical account and outright retreading of events isn’t the same as something coming up in the modernity of the setting. Nobody now still references Cenarius’ death or the Orc/Night Elf war as being important.
Why should they be?
I was talking about characters in the story itself, not players.
So, do you think that dismissal is erroneous?
That was not what I called you out on headcanoning. What I called you out on headcanoning was putting words in his mouth that he would have included something he did not say he would have, and you posting your confidence in knowing exactly what someone you have never met would write.
I do not assume there was none. I am saying it is fact that they never put the goal in-game and have never answered the question outside the game ever, either.
That or we admit that there is a lot of half baked writing through most of the game. Which I would agree with.
If you mean I find that amusing, that does remain the case, yes. Doesn’t mean the Night Elves never did anything wrong, though.
They sure don’t. Doesn’t seem very important then, does it? Cenarius works with the Horde, and Humans work with the Night Elves after the Night Elves killed them without talking to them, too, after all. And it never comes up. So, you’re right, it’s not important any more.
So you agree that it wasn’t important. Why’d you ask in the first place then if you agreed with me?
We’ll see tomorrow, won’t we?
If they dismiss the appearance of Night Elf victory at Darkshore because Blizzard doesn’t confirm it or doesn’t do anything with it, then I agree with them that ultimately the appearance of Night Elf victory at Darkshore is unimportant to Blizzard.
When I speculated on him potentially adding that as Lorash’s motivation, my language clearly indicated that it was a stretch.
So what? None of that matters as far as the importance of the event is concerned.
What exactly do you mean in saying something is “half-baked writing”? Even if you’re to say something is ill-conceived - Which, for the reasons I’ve already outlined, does not seem to be the case here - That doesn’t make it unimportant.
But again, that mostly amounts to a halfhearted hand-waving of those events.
Except, it very clearly is. It’s been debated for fifteen years straight. It was the first meeting of two major races which have been near-constantly in conflict ever since. It may be ancient history now, but it’s still important.
No. What I asked was, why should the Horde be “grateful” for that sacrifice? It being important and the Horde not being “grateful” for it aren’t mutually exclusive ideas.
No, because I was referencing how it would be treated years from now.
Because the event wasn’t important enough to put the effort into it.
Half-baked in that no effort was put into making it a fully fleshed out story, and no effort has ever been made since to flesh it out any further.
I will halfhearted hand-wave any writing that is halfheartedly written, especially if Blizzard never does anything with it ever again.
I’ll let you answer yourself there:
It is about as important to characters in the story as Duke Lionheart is. Which is not important enough to ever be mentioned again.
It’s rather synonymous for the Horde to not find it important if they’re not grateful for it.
If they treat it years from now any differently than how they treat it tomorrow I will be surprised.
Tyrande might not of had a problem with the Blood Elves back then, but she does not speak for all her people and there feelings. Someone in the Night Elf miltary sent there forces to a land they had no claim or control over to spy on the rebuilding and still neutral Silvermoon. The Blood Elves did not join the Horde till after they had taken out the big bad in the Ghost Lands and that was after the Night Elves had show up in a decent amount of force.
I find it funny how blood elves came into the story in BC, the Horde Populations were so low Alliance players couldn’t get any Battlegrounds going at all. Only reason they are Horde is because of this, the lore doesn’t really support it otherwise.
Them throwing Night elves into blood elf starting zone and not explaining what they were doing there or why the two do not communicate and are just hostile. Is only because it would make to much sense for them to do so
Its just blizzard story telling in general.
Quite serendipitous indeed.
But those quests did have effort put into them, it’s just not expressed in this specific way you keep saying is necessary.
They put the effort in to reference it just today, so…
But your evidence for it being halfheartedly written is shoddy at best.
So in your estimation, that conflict was unimportant?
Why? They can view it as important but still not feel the need to be grateful. After all, they also sacrificed many lives against the Legion on Hyjal.
So… Practically irrelevant, you mean? This conversation became very ironic very quickly.
This is factual. I’m glad you agree with me.
I know. I posted up a thread for it: Ghostland Spoilers. Do you think the Night Elves are still there along with their buildings? They were during the Void Elf recruitment questline, too. Do you still think the Blood Elves stopped the spying in the end?
My evidence is quite solid, in that Blizzard has never put the effort into completing the story, and even now leaves the Ghostlands in the same state it was in all the way back to the Burning Crusade. It is halfhearted at best.
In my own estimation, unless Blizzard uses it for a story going forward, it is not important.
Or they can simply not think about it, and in doing so making it unimportant to them. This is usually the case for ungrateful people.
Sure, if you’re admitting the Night Elves spying has never been treated as relevant.
Hell, Lor’themar and Shandris were working side by side just today.
I was only reiterating what you said. It’s wrong that it’s necessary.
Could be deserted now. Could be the Night Elves refortified it, or even managed to stick around when the Blood Elves were absorbed with more pertinent threats. Regardless, all three of their spying locations were buildup around preexisting leyline nodes, and the Blood Elves outed their operation, so their scrying was ended.
Point is Blizzard did indeed remember that the Night Elves were there.
The story was completed. Blizzard not constantly updating zones or adding on to questlines doesn’t mean that it didn’t reach a reasonable conclusion.
In that estimation, almost nothing is important. Like 90% of the story would be irrelevant, possibly more.
It has been stated that the Orcs feel they repaid their actions in blood on Hyjal though. Again, they fought and died for the Night Elves’ tree that day too, why should they feel they owe the Night Elves anything?
I was referring to Teldrassil, not the Night Elves’ spying. Shandris working with the Horde doesn’t exactly speak towards it’s relevance.
Oh, but there was that line about Tyrande splitting off and being “consumed by vengeance”, and all that about the power of the Night Warrior being too much for her. I suppose as an offshoot of Teldrassil, foreshadowing like that gives it some relevance at least.