Alternately, Arthas unwittingly served the will of an evil omnicidal god, and then, when he directly put on the helm, he actually resisted doing what Zovaal wanted him to. Sylvanas knew full well what who she was helping (though she was tricked/badly deluding herself about it) by destroying the helm.
I feel the difference is more ‘Arthas willingly did evil things before becoming undead/undergoing soul damage; while Sylvanas, to our knowledge (and in all probability), only ever did evil thing after becoming undead/undergoing soul damage.’
Wrong.
Everything that has been written about arthas disproves this.
True but everything she did afterwards was 100% full her and her alone. She had complete freedom in her decisions and everytime she chose the worst possible thing.
Her only defense is the trauma of what she went through and trauma does not excuse any action that may hurt others. It never has and never will.
I think for some people if Arthas is a victim too then it will take away something from what Sylvanas went through. I think thats why there is such resistance from some people to consider Arthas as a victim of the burning legion… and zovaal.
Arthas being Zovaal’s pawn in the long game takes away from Arthas’ own presence as a villain and diminishes his descent into madness, so it’s not like Sylvanas is losing out.
At the very least, they actually set up the board for a redemption story with Arthas, and for once it would have been a villain redemption that could have made sense and actually done well, but they pissed it away.
Likely shouldn’t frame it as Arthas vs. Sylvanas, as both characters were duped and controlled to some extent. Frankly, I don’t think they considered the implications of making Sylvanas a victim again, which is why they’re in this miserable gray area of her soul fragment not robbing her of agency but somehow also changing her from unrepentant Banshee Queen to penitent introspection.
Honestly, Arthas being a Villain rather than a Victim never made sense to me. His soul was stolen by a Mournblade, and from then on he was compelled to turn on everything he ever cared about.
To me, it was always idiotic and unrealistically moralist to say Arthas was evil as early as Stratholm.
It’s one of those “Hindsight is 20/20” things. We know it ends up bad, but few of us would make a different choice if we were in the same position without knowledge of the future.
Sylvanas on the other hand knew what she was doing from the very beginning. If she didn’t, it is a degree of stupidity and obliviousness that goes far beyond Arthas’ sin of being overzealous.
Arthas turned his back on his humanity and sought power without regard for the consequences.
Was he screwed over by Uther? Yes. The premise, one I agree with personally, is that everyone deserves a shot at redemption, and he was denied even judgement. But he still bears some responsibility for his decisions.
Going to end this debate that arthas was a victim and not doing this of his own accord.
Exhibit A: Tichondrius clearly states his soul was claimed by frostmourne. That implies he did not give his soul willingly it was stolen from him.
Exhibit B: Muradin reading the inscription off of the frostmourne holdout.
Exhibit C: The lich king voice is more like eren Yeager it urges you on and forces you whether you really don’t want to do it in the end arthas was ultimately a slave to ner’zhul will at the end of the day.
Exhibit 4: Malganis Manipulation was an agent of the jailer and Dentharius it was always set in stone that arthas was going to become a death knight at the very least. And it’s even stated by tichondrius as stated in exhibit one this was the intention from malganis in the beginning.
So whoever is stating that arthas is evil willingly is incorrect he did not choose to willingly become evil. It is very clear that dansuer does not know what he is talking about.
Exhibit 5: kelthulzad stating ner’zhul knew that arthas would kill him.
And y’all forgot about how that one girl who was being coerced by a noble to sleep with arthas back when he was a paladin and he outright refused to do so because it would be akin to rape and he had a strong sense of morality. Again frostmourne and all these individuals corrupted him. That’s the beauty of his story that people seem to have forgotten.
Meanwhile slybarfas windfarter here had free will and chose to genocide the elves, start the fourth war. Brainwash Anduin into being a puppet for the jailer. Then proceeded to attack the night fae for the jailer, destabilize the shadowlands and then proceeded to almost undo the frantic of reality by tearing that helm apart on Azeroth. And somehow she’s deserving a redemption while doing this all of her free will even the soul splitting nonsense doesn’t save this garbage. Because she very clearly knew when to turn on the jailer in dictating she had a choice to do so and was not brainwashed. The fact you people are even stating that slyvanas was turned into a banshee well arthas had his free will stolen. Difference is she got hers back and ended up worse then him. She had already had her chance to redeem for what she did under the scourge but nah she kept with this hatred for too long.
Even the state of Arthas’s Soldiers would not stop him from taking in any curse in exchange for saving and avenging the Civilians of his homeland!
Soldiers that don’t care about the Civilians of their homeland in favor of napping at home despite an inevitable invasion from a growing army of Undead are betraying their People!
Unfortunately the Spirits of the cavern did not follow the terms of the agreement(“I will give anything, or pay any price, if only you will help me save my people.”) as they did not save his people but Dominated him in order to condemn them!
Everyone betrayed Arthas’s people: The Soldiers, the King, Uther, Jaina and even the Spirits of Frostmourne’s Cavern!
I’m not saying arthas is right He two times where he was wrong the mercenaries and not listening to medivh. Otherwise he was manipulated in these scenarios I listed above.
He was unwilling to accept that fighting the Scourge was a lost cause and was so desperate to save and avenge his civilians that he was willing to kill his mercenaries.
Arthas had too much hope in winning with just his army. That was his flaw. Just as Velen’s flaw was too much hope in Prophecies!
Medivh told the Horde about the Demons returning yet didn’t mention that to Arthas nor there being multiple Nathrezim leading the Scourge(and where one falls another takes it’s place) or Frostmourne being designed to bind Arthas to the Scourge’s Master.
Medivh was incompetent with how he did things.
He didn’t give enough details for Arthas to realize that his paltry Army could not beat the Scourge.
This is what I don’t like about this whole “It was Zovaal all along” thing. Arthas was targeted by Ner’zhul as he saw Arthas to the perfect person to manipulate into becoming a key servant and later as a new body. Mal’ganis was used as a pawn by Ner’zhul to ensure that Arthas picked up Frostmourne. So having it that Mal’ganis planned all along to be betrayed by Ner’zhul, acted surprised to sell it and now brags that Arthas was his favourite pawn is beyond stupid. Cause it is not how it happened EVER. Ner’zhul was the one who convinced the Legion that Arthas and Kel’thuzad were important to the operation. Corrupting Arthas and bringing back Kel’thuzad as an Arch Lich were key parts of the deception. As Arthas was directly linked to Ner’zhul via Frostmourne and Kel’thuzad wasn’t a mind controlled puppet. Therefore when Ner’zhul lost control of the scourge to Tichondrius following the summoning of Archimonde, he still had those key assets in waiting. When Tichondrius “died” to Illidan, Ner’zhul gained back his control over the scourge. Which is when Kil’jaeden noticed he got duped from the start. The Legion was sus about Ner’zhul following Mal’ganis “happy little accident” but by that time it was too late. Archimonde was getting impatient.
You are assuming that Arthas or anyone but Jaina would’ve believed him though. Even if he told them all about it. Medivh was just as vague to Thrall as he was to Teranas, Antondius and Arthas. Yet Thrall believed him and the others didn’t.
This is a retcon. It was implied that Ner’zhul tricked the Legion into converting Arthas to their side. While ensuring that Kel’thuzad had to be revived by the Sunwell to be powerful enough to summon Archimonde. In truth neither of these were exactly true. The Legion was sus about Ner’zhuls motives when it came to Arthas following Mal’ganis “tripping down some stairs” but Archimonde was getting impatient. This is also part of the reason why Kil’jaeden ordered Illidan to kill the Lich King. The deceiver was deceived.
Mal’ganis lured Arthas to Northrend not to kill him, but to force him to take up Frostmourne. It is why members of the scourge would whisper the name when Muradin was looking for other treasures in Northrend. Although Arthas didn’t know that was the plan until he confronted Mal’ganis, already wielding the blade. To which Mal’ganis brags that he wasn’t the one who was leading the Scourge as was claimed by Kel’thuzad but someone else. Ner’zhul. The orc then told Arthas that he can have his vengeance. To which Mal’ganis was shocked and stunned, as this was not part of the script.
Arthas was the key for the Legions invasion to happen. Kel’thuzad was dead at this point and only he could summon Archimonde to Azeroth at that time.
But I guess Mal’ganis dying to Arthas was always part of the greater script. Since Mal’ganis views Arthas as his “greatest pawn”. Ah yes, your greatest pawn was the guy you lured to a cursed blade only to be betrayed by what you believed was a loyal servant and your prisoner. Don’t you see it guys? The Dreadlords KNEW ALL ALONG that Ner’zhul was planned on betraying the Legion and wanted to do his own thing. As that just so happened to line up with Zovaals. Mal’ganis acting all shocked was just an act. Mal’ganis wanting revenge on Arthas was just an act as well. It is why he never showed up again during Wrath after we forced to him flee. Steve Danuser is a genius, why didn’t I see this all before?
People CAN be victims AND villains such as the Waynes of Flashpoint Earth. (The Batman of Flashpoint Earth is certainly no hero.) And again as sh own in the Arthas novels, many of the elective choices Arthas made as a Death Knight paralell the same personality that he showed as a younger man, his stubborn impulsiveness and general unwillingness to listen to anyone or to moderate his actions.
But Arthas, according to the book lost control of himself after touching that sword. Whatever villainy you want to paint Arthas with has to be between the start of the campaign up to him finally picking up that sword.
I’ve literally provided above that it’s stated by tichondrius he lost his soul to frostmourne. These people should be judging him killing the mercenaries not his actions as a death knight.
According TO THAT SAME BOOK. Arthas took Sylvanna’s resistance as a PERSONAL offense. He went out of his way to torment her after defeating and killing her.
Also according to that same exact book. Arthas purged both his remaining humanity and Ner’zhul from his mind during the time he was making like an ice covered statue.
