Worgen V. Orcs: Dawn of Interest

Lore Story Forum
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So I’ve been leveling this guy. And, it’s kind of a crying shame to me the coolest worgen story stuff happens in the Silverpine Horde questline.

I won’t spoil it. If you’ve never played it I highly recommend it. As a Forsaken stan at least I remember it instantly turning my skepticism about this new version of WoW (I hadn’t played since Wrath) inside out. It’s a banger of a war storyline, we won’t have new content for awhile, go give it a go if you haven’t yet.

But I digress;

I’ve been thinking of why they never really pursued the Forsaken VS Worgen Halloween Wars much after Silverpine. And after some thought I’m pretty sure it’s because it’s a hat on a hat scenario.

When both sides are spooky, in similar ways no less (both sides look like they’d bump into Abott and Costello) nobody’s the straight man. It’s just not visually that interesting. Don’t get me wrong I like Freddy VS Jason but there’s a reason it was a one off fireworks display and not an ongoing series.

Forsaken fighting Humans is just visually more interesting. The Worgen look like they should be working with, not against, their spooky brethern. In a pure Forsaken VS Worgen setting it works fine. But add in everybody’s friends and it doesn’t.

And this is why I believe the Worgen fell into a narrative ditch. They were invented to spook the spookers. But, they really aren’t scarier than the Forsaken and it’s not that interesting to most people. I like it but I treat Halloween like an Orthodox Rabbi treats Passover so of course I do.

What the Worgen narrative needs is a good foil. A good iconic antagonist to shake fists at eachother across a battlefirld.

The Orcs in this regard are perfect. The Worgen are tailor made to be their foe.

Think about it;

  • Worgen can appear as a puny human, luring Orcs in.
  • Orcs ride and live with wolves, making them potentially difficult to smell
  • The Orc’s superior physical aptitude vs the Human is matched if not dwarfed by the Worgen.
  • The Orc’s blood lust is matched if not dwarfed by the Worgen.

Humans might as well be prey for Orcs. They’re bigger, stronger, meaner and just as clever as them. Literal plot magic is mankind’s only saving grace. If Orcs invaded Earth it’d be over for mankind the second they had comparable technology.

Worgen on the otherhand? They’re bigger, stronger, meaner and just as clever as Orcs. It’d put the Orcs on the backfoot. Now they have to be the ones relying on clever tactics, superior arms and bigger friends to win the day.

It’s a match made in heaven. Wolves and blood rage are part of the Orc brand. Turning that against them will work out well and make for an interesting fight.

Plus you’ve also the Darkspear, Kaldorei, Draenei and Tauren to tag in. And c’mon I know you want to see some Beast War duel between a Tauren and Worgen rendered in those gorgeous CGI animation graphics. It’ll be a barn burner!

So what do y’all think? Could this salvage the long neglected Worgen narrative? Or am I just such a Forsaken stan that I can’t truly love anything trying to threaten my beloved bone bois and this is some weird way to justify me thinking werewolves are rad?

PS; Yes this is Benedikt in a fur suit for those curious.

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I’m going to be that guy and bump my own comment. I know y’all are worked up about the next 9.0 spoilers but seriously.

The Horde and Alliance background war should be in the background. But it should be a fun aside.

  • Orcs VS Worgen

  • Kaldorei VS Darkspear

  • Tauren & Goblin VS Draenei

  • Rotate line ups to keep it spicy

EK

  • Forsaken / Belves versus Humans and their harrier and tiny tinkerer friends jump in. As do the Allied races to keep things spicy.
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I wouldn’t mind seeing some of the races actually square off in a way that isn’t purely faction based, yeah. One of my favourite things in BC was Blood Elves versus Draenei, which unfortunately fizzled out by the time the expansion was done with.

Orcs versus Worgen would be an interesting matchup, if only because the idea of the giant wolf-riding Orcs being ambushed and fighting literal wolfmen is endlessly amusing to me.

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The Battle of Darkshore I didn’t like as a story beat. I think it would’ve made more sense for the Forsaken to be in Arathi. Then they could’ve done something with the Defilers and Black Bride.

But visually I really liked it. The Forsaken and Kaldorei have very asymmetrical power sets. It was fun to watch those very different styles and skills bounce off eachother. Missed opportunity to have an ancient guardian tree dude fight one of those big, mecha abominations from Naxx. That’d be a cool kaiju battle.

But the Worgen rarely get anything like that. They’re great in Silverpine, and have a memorable bit in the Horde BFA intro quest where a whole army of them sniff you out and chase you to the docks.

Otherwise though, they’re tag alongs. Which strikes me as unfair. When you let them be ferocious, brutal predators they’re pretty interesting. As random tag alongs appearing next to SW Footman, often in the same armor despite that looking ridiculous in them, they’re pretty dull.

I think bouncing their ferocity off a similarly ferocious, but entirely visually different, foe would make for a fun fight you’d want to revisit and play from both sides.

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Worgen have the same strength stat as orcs. Orcs have one over in stamina over worgen.
I agree with most of your post though. I don’t agree that “orcs don’t know how to hunt wolves because they work with wolves.”
Orcs are as big a threat to worgen as worgen are to them.

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I meant that more as an advantage for the Orcs. They probably smell like wolves because they’re around them all the time. So they might be harder for the Worgen to detect.

Plus with the Vulpera now in Orgrimmar, and Gilneans constantly dressed like English aristocrats out for a fox hunt, that conflict kinda writes itself.

I also would like to see more Tauren VS Draenei stuff. As they’re both big hoof bois. But there’s a technology VS nature theme in there. Totem poles VS spaceships in a setting where the totem pole could actually win.

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You have far more faith in Blizzard’s ability to let the Horde win anything than I do.

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I think in BFA the idea was Horde would win the first half, Alliance the second half. As that’s more or less what happens.

But since you’re ‘winning’ on behalf of a crazed genocidal dictator who very obviously doesn’t care about you or the Horde, it never really felt like winning.

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It isn’t tho. We won the War of Thorns. That was the prepatch. We lost literally every single encounter since.

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You bust Talanji out of jail, set fire to Stormwind, then blow up a whole a SW fleet.

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Jaina humiliates the seven characters she solos on the way out. The prophet confirming that she can successfully solo all of them.
Talanji does indeed do that, though.

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Jania Proudmoore basically wins the war for them. Which I don’t think pleased anyone. I mean the Nelves technically won the Battle of Darkshore but, from the sound of it, off screen in a way the player isnt involved in.

So, pretty hollow victory.

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I’ve thought of these similar setups in one way or another.

Its almost criminal we haven’t gotten some Shadow Hunters vs. Sentinels stories or quests, or just some other guerilla Troll vs Night Elf stuff. It fits well.

I mean, it could just be straight comical too. A group of Night Elf Druids and a group of Darkspear Druids trying to convince an ancient of war to fight for them instead of the other while a few Sentinels and Headhunters are just staring each other down? Hilarious.

Back to the initial point, Orcs and Worgen would be good but I feel its even more out of place than Forsaken and Worgen. I get the might vs might argument and scenes that could be depicted, but you’re taking one or the either out of their “natural” environments. The primary issue with the Worgen vs Forsaken stories is that it doesn’t really show either getting overly creative and threatening to each other. The Silverpine quest line suffers from, primarily, just not knowing how to deal with the Worgen. Their only previous experience was with some Sons of Argul in SIlverpine and maybe a few in Northrend?

It just seemed a lot more like “What the hell are these things and what do we do against organized resistance and tactics?” that set an early tone that was never followed up on, particularly in the densely wooded areas of Lordearon and Gilneas. Dark Rangers using spiders for traps, Darkhounds to hunt, just the march of the undead that can get sewn back together, Meat Wagons collecting worgen to use as extra parts, and of course the Blight and their magical aptitude. There is so much to do in the dark scary forests between these two that just fit their themes so well and its just a shame they haven’t given these settings the proper attention they need.

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True. And that’s why I think Battle for Gilneas is visually my favorite BG. However Warcraft tragically has a finite amount of spooky forests. Darkshore was revamped into one, but the Worgen contribution to that fight was some dudes in tophats with bulldogs and hunting rifles. Be a good look for vulpera hunting but maybe meet the Forsaken looking like you’re playing for keeps here and not like you’ve to go to a dinner party after this.

I think Ashenvale however is a fun place to run around as a Worgan. Nothing’s topped Duskwood for me yet, but the Kaldorei fae forests work pretty well too. And to that end I think they’d be better off stalking the Orcs and Goblins.

The spooky factor is pretty clearly a niche interest to most of the fanbase. Worgen are one of the least played races on the Blue side, and I think a lot of that is the lack of interesting stuff for them to do.

The Forsaken are more popular but the Horde is generally more diverse. The Belves are the majority but after them the playerbase is pretty evenly distributed amongst the OG 4 races. So clearly there’s some interest in that stuff.

But in BFA at least, I heard a lot of people really hating having to do spooky Forsaken stuff during the war campaign. Turns out necromancy and graveyards unnerve some people, and they don’t want their Belf Paladin wrapped up in all that. Which is fair I guess.

So how to give Worgen more stuff to do? Make them stalk the savage Horde races in the fae wild of northern Kalimdor like Malfurion in that one cinematic.

The Alliance isn’t allowed to be uglier than the Horde and the Forsaken V. Worgen is too niche to have resources put in. I guess they could attack the Sin’Dorei, but the Belves are prettier than the Worgen so to the casual observer the Alliance will appear to be the monstrous faction, which is in violation of the style guide.

But Orcs, Trolls, Goblins and Tauren? Those they could attack savagely. And as long as you put a pretty purple elf guy in the background to show he’s on wolf dudes side, the message will come across with no problem.

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We do have some story hints that Worgen savagery is capable of putting fear in even the monstrous members of the Horde, Varian’s speech in Tides of War and also that little note in Chronicle that said they sent the Horde screaming in fear when they and Varian came to help reclaim Ashenvale. Not a lot but it’s something.

Meanwhile Forsaken don’t seem as much capable of fear, they even have a racial that negates it completely, so it’s not really their ‘thing’ to feel it when they are a horror race made playable. The conflict in itself is cool like seeing Dracula and the Wolf Man fght is cool, but there should indeed be moments in the real game where Worgen have a sort of “Terror Hero” or “Horrifying Hero” theme about them.

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Exactly. It’s my head canon that the Forsaken were deployed in Darkshore because the Night Warrior / Worgen attacks were an effective psychological warfare tactic on most of the Horde.

So they deploy the spook proof bone bois to rattle the opposition. I was hoping for more commander ish talking like we got in Arathi. Could have some ‘The dark is my home too’ banter.

I adore the Halloween War aesthetic of Forsaken V Worgen. But I don’t think that’s a fantasy with enough wide appeal and that’s part of why the Worgen narrative has been abandoned like an unwanted family pet.

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Ironically I can see the potential in Light-wielders being seen as scary by the Forsaken, if played up more. They have abilties meant to counter the very nature of undeath, being able to shackle them or actually make them feel literal fear through Turn Evil and such. (Not demonstrated in the gameplay since Forsaken are classed as humanoid but perhaps something that is possible within the lore where there is no need for proper PvP balance.)

Plus Forsaken live in Spook City USA and so do Worgen, so what would be something they’re less used to seeing? Shining plated Light bois with weird chandelier pieces floating around them and big fiery golden eyes of holy wrath that they know can disintegrate them in a single strike if they allowed it. Some of them even looking like the demons they used to see in their former life but now they are strangely infused with the Light. is That can be a pretty existentiel thing if played up well.

Worgen aren’t really made for the purpose of destroying undead, even if they can do it really well but that goes for all types of creatures to a Worgen. Paladins though? Definitely made for the purpose of eradicating them.

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Thats really it. Ashenvale and Darkshore, as well as the shenanigans in Felwood in the questing experience, are where you’d find these stories of orcs and worgen. However, you’re still transplanting the Worgen to another continent which isn’t an inherent bad thing, but if you’re looking for an entire campaign rather than just a few skirmishes or battles it doesn’t really fall through. Its the Kaldorei inviting them to Kalimdor to better control their curse and Gilneas’ debt to the elves for curing them that brings them over in the first place. There is a reason for Gilneans to be there. This is the only area where an Orc vs Worgen scene can really play out while also trying not to take anything else away from Night Elves. Yes, clearly it can play out anywhere but if you want to make it feel natural, to give it some meaning and depth, this is where it is, Northern Kalimdor.

Transplanting Orcs to Silverpine though, as we’ve seen, doesn’t work too well. Not to mention the supplemental stuff that has been mentioned about the fear and terror Worgen can cause, now you’re a continent away, surrounded by corpses as allies, being hunted by magically bolstered werewolves in their neighbors front yard or worse their own territory. Though, again, I’d push that to “what the hell are these things” rather than intrinsic fear that Worgen cause. Yes, I would be scared poopless by massive beasts hunting me from the trees as a puny human, or even as an orc who’s lived in the desert or Barrens their entire lives. If you brought in some Bleeding Hallow or Grom’gol/Stonard veterans, I’m doubtful that fear remains. The fear is of the unknown, not of Worgen in particular.

This is where Blizzard failed in the combat narrative. Darkshore should have been an Orc/Troll/Goblin warfront whereas Arathi should have been a Forsaken/Orc/Troll/Blood Elf warfront. I get the story they wanted to tell, even if it doesn’t make sense, but it could have been a side thing instead. A run the gauntlet series of quests while the main orc and troll forces keep fighting.

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I think they should have made what happened in the Wolfheart novel actually be the Ashenvale questing story, it would have been much more epic and portray some of that Worgen savage horror.

They always seem to put the coolest story elements in the books, which I kind of understand because you can tell about it easier than show it in an MMO with more limited time behind it, but Silverpine seemed to have no problem showing a big war happening with events constantly moving forward.

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My issue with that is the Forsaken’s bizarre relationship to the Light is actually something I find pretty fascinating. I main a Disc Priest and would do some dark ish if it got me a playable undead Paladin.

The Scarlet Crusade succeeded in being scary Light wielders to the Forsaken. But it wasn’t the magic in itself that was scary. It was because they were deranged theocratic fascists that would torture the Forsaken to death. They used Light and Fire magic to do it, but the magic wasn’t the scary part.

I miss the Scarlets. They were a very human feeling evil. They started with noble aspirations but gradually radicalized until they were a bunch of paranoid human supremacists who’d destroy anything that wasn’t them. Which is why it’s lame a Dreadlord was behind it, pushing them that way. Can’t be the darkness in men’s hearts and man’s inhumanity to man. No it’s gotta be some evil mind warping magic.

As to the Worgen being in Kalimdor; isn’t that were the vast majority of them have lived since Cata? I know there’s a colony in the Blasted Lands, and a non Worgen but Gilnean one in the Broken Isles but other than that most seem to live in Darnassus. Or did at least. They were able to organize a massive evacuation of Gilneas with very short notice I’m sure most of them are fine.

So presumably that area is their adopted home now. Gilneas is schrodinger’s zone. And now that Darnassus and the Undercity are gone I would be quite annoyed if they decided to out of nowhere advance the Gilneas story.

What I’d like is a wholly revamped Myst Isles. Bring it into Azeroth proper and put it in the overworld. It’s in swimming distance because it just is, I’m cool with a hand wave retcon.

Update the Exodar. But also put big Kaldorei and Worgen areas in the revamped map. Nobody is ever in those zones anyway. I three maned Velen. Took forever but not one person intervened or even noticed. There can easily be a Kaldori and Worgen district and spooky/fae forest areas added to the isles. They have Druids just say they put literal miracle growth on the stuff.

Then do the same with Quel’Thalas but give the Forsaken and Nightborne a district each. And add Forsaken and NBorne stuff into the Ghostlands. Forsaken could have a new burgeoning capital built over Deatholme. And give the Darkspear and Zandalari a subplot with Zul’Aman.