So, rushing Sunken Ring at the start. Defense only needs 5 kills then they can build Catapults and Flame throw entire Offense dead in a minute. The odds of us rushing them and not having 5 deaths is extremely low. in the last 15 Wintergrasps on Offense I have seen this strategy work 1 time when we wiped them without 5 deaths.
Yes if it works the round is over quicker. But it almost never works.
Then when it fails in the first 5 minutes of the battle,the whining starts up and half the team AFK’s out. Then we are left with 20 or so players and a 35 minute timer to wait out.
Why is this the strategy? When I try to say something about this bad strategy all I see is insults. That it is stupid to try any other strategy in wintergrasp then the SR rush, fail, AFK.
Thoughts? Does everyone just want quick EZ mode wins or quit and go do something else easy? Where is the battle gone? Should there be an hour coward debuff for leaving wintergrasp?
Probably because it’s simple and you have a better chance just zerging one base and hoping to wipe D than you do trying to get 40 people to do something more complex.
Check out some suggestions for how I think this could change I agree this makes for the ‘snowball effect’ of “we lost the first fight, time to go bye” to be way too prevalent.
because of the ranking system. this actually forces offense into an aggressive position where they must attack. since players will never win without vehicles, defense has the option to try different strategies, offense does not. defense can sit in the keep all day and waste the 1-2 vehicles you can make by killing npcs if they want.
the fact that everyone settled on SR is mostly just coincidence, though there is advantages for D to run there for the initial team fight, cannons can reach it, and dropping off the ledge gives O some initial damage taken. since O has to chase D for kills, we all end up at SR.
Both are valid possibilities. Being backfilled into a wg where your team is down is an auto netflix moment. Sometimes you can participate in an av or ioc turtle where some deserter gave up too early. Ashran is somewhat possible if enough bads leave and get replaced with decent players. WG though is very momentum based around that opening fight.
i saw your post in the ebg feedback thread and agree with some of it, however i think the rank system needs to be scrapped entirely. make the game end when the 3 towers are killed and limit what vehicles can be made per workshop owned, say 1 siege, 2 demos, and 3 cats per workshop. O can get up to 2 seiges and 4 demos extra to counter D having two workshops in their base.
this would force teams to split between the keep and the towers, and make fighting over workshops more important.
you could also make it so that the vehicles filling slots from a workshop self destruct when that workshop is captured by the other team.
Very similar to the direction i would like to see it go. It may also require the Towers to have an increased HP. Regardless, I feel this BG is very salvageable with some changes, all the ideas have their merit, and forcing the teams to diverge instead of converging into a mob at the start is the essential success component.
the towers would need higher HP pools, but in reality it should be the equivalent to a wall in the fortress, 3 walls to break down to win vs 3 towers.
the main reason behind the game ending on towers is that when D is winning, they spend 20-30 minutes in a mob circling the map hunting down any O they can find for hks. O basically has to go find some place to hide, at that point the game is done and you are just riding out the clock.
perhaps the health pools of towers and walls could be increased to increase game duration. with a solid game ending event for both sides, the timer could be removed, allowing for longer games, and turtle strats.
The towers definitely need more health but I don’t think the solution proposed will work in practice because the three towers are split across the map whereas the fortress is in one location and getting to an assaulted side is much easier than going from west tower to east tower.
Offence will still be crippled because not only do they have to defend all three towers that are on opposite sides of the map, they also need to have some attacking the keep in order to win whilst still controlling workshops.
I think the problem with the ‘there are still 20 minutes to go’ is because of people AFKing and thus the 20 minutes is not engaging. Fix the problem with the game being decided in the first clash and then it should no longer be a problem at all (because more clashes will happen with more chances for recovery).
Another alternative is that the towers take off more time, but the problem is that defense is much easier than offense and it doesn’t play well with the idea that epic games should be longer.
im sure you could balance healthpools between walls and towers, but the goal is to get both teams to split their players between the fortress, the towers, and the workshops.
I don’t disagree - people should spread out more which will help with clashes. I just think the expectation on an offensive team in this scenario is much like the Alliance at SHGY vs Horde at IBGY problem; one is much, much easier than the other and at that point it’s already an uphill battle.
What do you think about the idea of bombs being added so there can also be runners, and vehicles requiring more rank (I know we hate the ranking, but it’s not going anywhere)? Eg. rather than 5 kills, a catapult required 20 kills and the big siege vehicles required 40?
Means initial clash is less important and allows people to regroup, and if defense sits in their keep people can just bomb the doors. Also means the game will go on for slightly longer at the beginning so that if defense is victorious, them taking out the towers means the game is much closer to ending than the 20 minutes of nothing.
Would need to find a solution for latecomers but that in addition to making the offensive workshops neutral at the beginning I think could do the trick? edit: plus fewer vehicles plz
there are literally people who whine about faction favoritism in ToK, the most equal map in all of pvp, its better to just ignore that kind of complaint unless it can be objectively proven.
im on the fence with that, on one hand i can see how it would help, but on the other the vehicles themselves are objectives to fight over, so negating that with bombs negates part of the point of WG.
without a timer defense can’t just sit in their keep.
and while i think games could end quickly if one side is dominant, evenly matched games could go on longer. but each tower lost mean less objectives to have to defend, so the attackers can build a stronger defense at each tower, with the final tower being the hardest to take down. and with players split up all over the map, i think you would see more things like dynamic movement of groups and calls about where people are going.
Yes I saw this post. It was dumb. But the level of difficulty defending SHGY (and the captain and its towers) vs IBGY is not that story and one is much easier to defend.
True - but isn’t one of the main complaints that it is PvV? Would bombs help people kill more players and fight in smaller skirmishes? I imagine it working out similar to IoC where the vehicles are much better but there is an option for those that can’t get one.
I see your logic here but sadly experience has shown us that what will happen is once a single tower goes down, /afk. It would be like Warsong where there are people that leave after the first flag cap… /despair (so delicious)
you could tune around this by modifying HP pools of the towers and walls, perhaps the towers have more HP or less depending on how it would play out. even though the towers are more spread out, the walls are easier to defend as they create chokepoints. if after a few thousand games a trend of say defense winning more is shown, wall HP could be lowered, or tower HP increased. or even creative solutions like tower cannons doing more damage to vehicles.
i don’t think that complaint would go away with bombs added. some people don’t want to have any vehicles at all, some people are not situationally aware and hate dying to bombardments. but with players forced to hold workshops to maintain vehicle count, you would see more pvp at those locations, allowing pvp centric players a place to sit and be useful while the rest who don’t care are either at towers or fortress.
people will leave over the silliest of reasons, there is no reason to design around them leaving. not enough healers? /afk, ashran? /afk, just not meshing with your team? /afk, bg week and your team is full of midiot windowlickers? you can’t /afk hard enough.
I agree this makes for the ‘snowball effect’ of “we lost the first fight, time to go bye” to be way too prevalent.