Will we see MM resurrected in Castle Nat?

Classes Hunter
30

You’re barely topping my io score from 3 seasons ago with an absurd amount of power creep. What I said is still true.

I was referring to playing with him in Season 1 and I also got CE during that time. Quit a bit over 1/2 way through the season and still ranked top 500 world. I didn’t play after that, and just started 5 days ago. But thanks for noticing :roll_eyes:

He still has played, and stayed MM most of the duration of the expansion. It’s viable, it’s just not easy to make viable. Much like in season 1, it was extremely hard to maintain the DPS of a DH / Rogue as a hunter with any spec.

All I was trying to point out was the fact that it’s viable, and has been viable. You can dig through the hundreds of keys and find me in those, but considering you can’t even scroll to look at previous raid progress in the same expansion, it’s probably going to be a problem for you to figure out.

2 Likes
31

As far as I know, that’s not the case. Like you said, all abilities are now calculated from attack power. I’m pretty sure it also includes pet autoattacks.

My guess is that it may be something to do with how the stat weights are calculated, which may not account weapon damage for procs like Wild Call and Dance of Death because they scale from proc chance not from damage. But I wouldn’t say that I’m confident about that answer xD

32

I played it all of BFA and I’ve had a great time. I recommend simply playing the spec that’s the most fun in combo with your favorite covenant.

2 Likes
33

Right, but if that were the case, and 100% of damage from both were based on the effective AP formula, then DPS output should be directly proportional to AP% per minute, and the marginal DPS value of weapon DPS should be proportional to AP% per minute. Which means if DPS were equal, so should the marginal value of weapon DPS.

But that’s consistently not the case.

Sims are used for stat weights specifically because they can handle this. Literally what sims do to calculate stat weights is run sims that incrementally increase the given stat while holding others constant, and calculate the average DPS gain per point added to said stat (and then repeat that process for each of the other stats). So procs would certainly be taken into account.

That said, you may be on to something with Dance of Death. That increases agility, with a fairly high uptime. The higher your agility (while holding weapon damage constant), the less of your effective AP comes from your weapon, and thus the less marginal value relative to your total DPS comes from increased weapon DPS.

MM’s traits largely revolve around either static damage adds (Surging Shots, Focused Fire, etc), or secondary stat buffs (In the Rhythm), so MM’s weapon stat weights wouldn’t be being depressed the same way.

That all said, I still don’t see it making the difference it does atm. For example, here’s my hunter simmed for BM, and then simmed for MM (and only having one of his 3 Azerite with MM traits, too, so overall DPS is much lower):

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/bier5C6kjbBiJx68YHP59G
https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/bwRpD2guGNB9KkdHfq44rq

Even with the simmed MM DPS being 21.5% lower, his marginal value for weapon DPS is 60.5% higher. That means that, if he were doing equal DPS (and the contribution scaled proportionally, which is likely), his MM weapon damage weight would be slightly more than double.

So something is definitely going on here. MM is scaling substantially better with weapon damage, according to the sims, which says to me a substantial portion of BM’s damage is not scaling the same way with weapon damage.

34

To be fair, BM actually does scale non-linearly with haste. Because both Frenzy and Bestial Wrath have a fixed duration regardless of haste, increasing haste increases their effective uptime, as well as increasing DPS as normal. Increased haste also increases focus regen (both native, and by increasing average Barbed Shots per minute via both CDR and auto-shot hasting into Wild Call) and therefore reduces average Cobra Shot interval. Cobra Shot provides a fixed CDR to Kill Command, whose CD also scales with haste, which means the average CD on Kill Command drops substantially better than linearly as haste goes up.

35

Whelp, tested it, and pet Basic Attacks do not scale.

Tested it using two white weapons (no secondary stats) and no other gear (so no other secondary effects). One was a Worn Shortbow (1-2 damage, 0.5 DPS, 3.0 speed), and the other was a Heavy Crossbow (15-23 damage, 6.3 DPS, 3.0 speed).

With the Worn Shortbow:

  • Pet melee swings for 167.
  • Pet Smack for 961.

With Heavy Crossbow:

  • Pet melee swings for 171.
  • Pet Smack for 961.

I’ve got a base agility while naked of 1464, so the effective AP for each is:

Worn Shortbow: 1464 + 0.56 = 1467
Heavy Crossbow: 1464 + 6.36 = 1501.8

That’s 2.37% higher. 167 * 1.0237 = ~171. So the auto-attacks are scaling as expected (and appear to have a coefficient of 11.4%)

However, my pet’s Smack (basic attack) did not change at all. That means it scales only with actual agility, not with weapon damage.

However, the larger one is that Kill Command does not scale with weapon DPS. With both weapons, my Kill Command is dealing 1243 damage.

Between those two, that’s roughly 40% of BM’s damage (according to a random pick amongst the top 10 on Shad on Warcraft logs) that does not scale with weapon damage.

So ya, unless that changed in SL (and I see no reason to suspect it has), MM scales waaaaaay better than BM.

Edit: grabbed a third white bow, Dalaran Bow (28-38 damage, 11.0 DPS, 3.0 speed)

  • Pet melee: 174
  • Pet Smack: 961
  • Kill Command: 1243

So basic attacks and Kill Command definitively do not scale with weapon damage/DPS.

2 Likes
36

Nice, thanks for testing it :slight_smile:

1 Like
37

Pinged this over to the beta feedback thread, maybe we can get KC and basic attack scaling fixed.

1 Like
38

Been playing it since they broke rsurv in patch 6.2

1 Like
39

mm is not the strongest hunter spec in the raid, bm is using data from the last testing phase on 9/11 and based on actual kills.

bm pulled further ahead since then as cobra shot had it’s damage buffed and focus cost reduced.

mm has an advantage on sustained aoe damage, and has amazing burst for pvp but for single target pve - and the first 4 bosses of nathria are single target fights - bm reigns.

40

i believe this is known.

in live and for the last two i think expansions, in bm spec the pet will always do 50% or more of your total combined damage.

in SL the pet does closer to 33% of your total damage. Your own personal damage contribution is significantly higher, and this damage does scale (but not with mastery like MM

the pets have never scaled off your weapon dps as far as i know, and both smack and KC are credited to your pets not you so i only expect those abilities to scale off of raw attack power.

41

you’re information is both incorrect and dramatically out of date. the wowmeta site often uses numbers that don’t actually exist.
Watch:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PRd0ukAEbVo
read: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1g5AAkCyglD9Fcs4B9UXv7QhzKd1vWXk87SDEpFkxxHg/edit#gid=0

mm is NOT the top hunter spec in the raid, even though they have the most logs.

42

was expecting BM to stay the top, but was hoping MM was going to be a good group spec.

43

Same, i just want to see MM rep closer to where it was in legion and other expacts and not what we saw in BFA.

1 Like
44

me too. i want BM to be the better solo spec and MM to be as good as BM in groups so people have an actual choice. However BM even if it does equal damage to MM then BM is the superior spec due to no limitations on movement.

1 Like
45

All I see is that such a few amount of logs makes it impossible to do any realistic statistic analysis. So basically all claims based on the Beta logs are invalid.

This whole thread is nonsense.

2 Likes
46

No jump to make. Marksman Hunter is the only Hunter I’ve ever played.
This:

With 8 likes, I must be missing something. ?

47

This wasn’t a post about MM being the next flavor of the month. This was about the fact that Representation wise MM was drastically underplayed throughout most of BFA and speculation that it might make some kind of comeback so it was represented as much as it was in at least legion.

MM’s overall representation in BFA was just slightly above SV, with BM accounting for almost 10 times the amount of players.

While I don’t expect MM to be played more than BM over night, it’d be nice if they were more even, if not numbers wise, at least representation.

Moving into Legion a lot of players moved from SV to BM and MM and going into BFA even more players moved from MM to BM. I’m just hoping in SL we can see some players who left MM in BFA make a switch back.

48

And neither was

It was a question about if being MM before hand counted as a yes to the OP question.

2 Likes
49

Ok, now I know what kind of comment you may have been hoping for. Back to that in a sec.
My comment, “I must be missing something.?” was directed towards Murrk’s post:

It has eight likes… why, idano… so, I must be missing something…
I think the size of the group playing any one spec is a result of how well it does the job its supposed to do. So, if MM rise while BM sink, it’ll mean either MM got better or BM got worse… or both… probably both, to see a major change.