Will the Forsaken lose the Scourge/WC3 Undead aesthetic and influence?

You sure it wasnt having the forsaken do evil things like testing bio weapons on innocents

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I’ve actually never heard that argument. Demons are responsible for the Scarlets. Any support the Alliance ever sent them was the result of not knowing the truth. I imagine gnome dwarf or nelf who naively tried to go north and join up thinking the Scarlets were a genuinely benevolent organization like the Agents were slaughtered for being non-human. Hell, even some of the humans who tried to join probably met the same fate out of paranoid zealotry.

They used to accept Dwarves and High Elves early on in the Scarlet Crusade’s history, but as they became more racist or extreme they became an only human organization. I wish that the Scarlet Crusade can be redeemed, but looking on how they’ve been portrayed it’s unlikely, but the Alliance badly needs a “lawful evil” organization amongst their ranks. These extremists could of matched that, but unfortunately Blizzard took them in a different direction and somehow they like the cockroach keep coming back from the dead.

whelp we’re fairly off-topic now but I still wanna discuss…

…Yea I agree with some of that… the Scarlets are played out as a villain. I dunno if the Alliance needs a whole evil organization, but I think it could use a few ‘Tywin Lannister’ type characters who are smart and genuinely believe that they know/want what’s best for the Alliance but are too power-hungry, prideful, or have some other flaw that prevents them from actually making things better. They’re evil, but they make sensible arguments. Varian, Genn, Rodgers, and Tyrande aren’t that, they actually are good people who have legitimate grieves with the Horde. Even Dealin has retroactively become that due to whatever writer on the team who can’t get over their ‘WC 1&2 evil Horde’ wank.

Damn it’s stupid that the most peaceful the Alliance has ever been with the Horde was when Stormwind was secretly ruled by Onyxia or all people.


I…might want to make a separate thread for this.

But what if we’re getting hints of the dregs of the Scarlets rising up again - after all, the idea of the Scarlet Crusade has never been killed, just their membership - because they’re going to become the footsoldiers of the eventual Light war against Azeroth? And many Alliance members will either join them or end up commanding them, like Turalyon at the top, as much as I don’t want him to become a raid boss?

An expansion where the villains are uber-Scarlets, paladins, Holy priests, naaru and draenei finally showing that they aren’t flawless would be dope.


They had better not. That would be about as dumb as taking Paladins away from humans.

Except maybe, depending on what you mean by “scourge” aesthetic. When the Forsaken became a separate entity from the Scourge, it made sense to deviate from the Nerubian architecture, and a few other things, so that the Forsaken were distinct from the Scourge.

But no matter what, the Forsaken are still the undead. You cannot mess with the undead. They will spread disease, and kill you and EAT WHAT IS LEFT OF YOU, if you do. They aren’t scourge, but mistaking them for “humans with skin condition” is even worse.


We’ll see what happens. I know that there are a lot of Forsaken players that are resistant to the idea of change, but I’m open to it.

It’s one of the few things that I’m genuinely interested in seeing how it plays out.

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Death Metal isn’t going away any time soon. There’s a lot of cultural inertia to how the Forsaken present and see themselves and two women who aren’t known for being particurlarly aggressive in the culture arena aren’t going to reverse that with any kind of speed.

I don’t know that forsaken players are actually resistant to the idea of change. Most would probably agree that with Sylvanas gone that some form of change is inevitable. I believe most would welcome change if it was presented as coming from within, exploring forsaken themes, culture, ideology and politics, rather than from being imposed from the outside which doesn’t seem promise anything except the whitewashing of all those themes.


Oh yeah, I should have clarified that I specifically meant changes regarding Calia bringing in a different perspective.

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The Blood Elves had a cultural shift from fel-sucking to reigniting the Sunwell with Arcane-and-Holy energies. That didn’t cause much of a cultural shift.

I don’t think the Forsaken are gonna change very much, at least not away from the bones and the architecture they started building in Wrath. I think plague weaponry will be demphasized but that’s about it.

They’ll probably get a new sigil but I don’t see a huge overhaul coming down the pipeline.

While true, we certainly have seen fewer spellbreakers. And when Blood Elves show up lately, it’s usually as paladins. I feel like they may have, in fact, lost quite a bit since the shift.

Forsaken, meanwhile, may be in a position to have a simultaneous major cultural and leadership shift, whereas Blood Elves kept Lor’themar, Halduron and Rommath for a little bit of consistency.


Personally I believe that the Sunwell and the problems concerning it was an integral feature to the Blood Elves and thereby restoring it has left a void in a lot of Blood Elf roleplay and representation. A majority of the Blood Elves have become less of characteristic of being pragmatic and manipulative people and more “Light is good!” archetypes that, although not as expressive as the Alliance variation of Paladins, are a desiccated form of what could’ve been explored.

Liadrin and the Blood Knights are all that really are expressed, and are a dominant force whenever the Blood Elves need representation. If they’re not the sole showcase (WoD) then they’re definitely apart of what’s going on.


I honestly don’t think that’s indicative of much. We just see fewer noteworthy units in general. We really don’t see many Orcish Blademasters or Tauren Spiritwalkers. I think the only reason we don’t see Spellbreakers is because there just hasn’t been a reason to, and their absence hasn’t really been addressed.

There might be a rennaisance of Light worship within the Forsaken ranks, which would be a bit of a shame. I really wanna see Natalie Seline be made into a Forsaken and reinvigorate the Cult of the Forgotten Shadow.

A real win in my book would be both. Calia’s a Discipline Priest, and just because she was reanimated via Holy magic doesn’t mean she doesn’t also have a foot in the death realm.

I predict balance of the two for the Forsaken.

I never lost the feeling that the Blood Elves have remained dogged survivors exult in the achievement of having risen from the ashes. The Blood Knights have the most drastic ideological shift from using the Light as a weapon to true devotion (though still in a very militaristic, weaponized interpretation of it), but still are couched within the framework of being capable of overcoming hardship.

I read a funny bit about how Blood Elves are survivors, with “pinkies out, motherf-cker” because not only do they succeed at it, but they know they look good doing it. Still pretty vain, that lot.

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My assumption of Calia is that functionally she is a bit of a body in stasis; which I would guess is the reason why AU Draenor was being crystalized. As well as why the Draenei have such absurdly long lifespans. She essentially is a human soul trapped in a body animated and kept in perpetual stasis. Which means she is very unlikely to rot, but is the Light’s facsimile of “Undeath”.

As for the cultural shift you’re talking about. In a setting that includes Calia, I would the preferred route is that you’d build up Voss and Calia as equal leaders of the Race. Voss is very representative of the Forsaken experience and Forsaken Free will, even if she hasn’t been a part of them for so long. Thus, her earning loyalty within the remaining Forsaken Old Guard like Belmont; Tattersail; Velonara; and Faranell could work. Calia in contrast could bring in Derek, Faol, Delaryn, and Barthalemew into the ranks.

Split the Forsaken down that line, with Voss and Calia developed into powerhouse A Rank leaders of “Function” (Voss) and “Form” (Calia). Voss is the most multi-specialized melee fighter I’ve ever seen in WoW. Calia is likely a powerhouse of a Disci-priest. With those other 8 being built up as supporting characters for them. It could work?

Ok bear with me here.

What if.

Calia and Voss got married and the Forsaken come out of this with TWO QUEENS

I’m here for it. Sign me up.

Just let me keep my meatwagons and abominations. And my green slime. And my gallows humor and my cannibalism.

I picked the goth zombies way back when and I picked them for a reason.


I mean … that is a route they could go.

But more conceptually I like that as a leader pairing. Calia represents what and who the people of Lordaeron before their deaths; Voss represents what and who the people of the Forsaken are after undeath. As much as they have deficits as leaders due to their current forced roles, they do offset each other’s thematic deficits as prospective Forsaken leaders.

They both need a lot of personal character growth though, and a lot of integration with the people they are leading. But, if we do need Calia Menethil I would certainly feel more comfortable with what she means for the Forsaken if someone like Voss was built into an equally influential leader.

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Leadership that represents the Forsaken reconciling their past existence and current one actually sounds good and reasonable. Certainly, it’s better than the nonsense from BtS where they were being forced to destroy objects from their human lives so they would only focus on completely new personal and cultural identities as undead. Because why be nuanced when you can BEEEE EEEE-VUUUUULLLL!!!


Its pretty much my preferred leaning in a situation where Calia is A leader. She needs a counterbalance that represents what the Forsaken are now for her to even have a chance at working; and it appears that is Voss. Who represents the Forsaken existence very well, even if she has maintained distance from them for so long. Both of course however need a lot of TLC in regards to integrating them into their current positions. Calia also likely could benefit from being distanced from the Alliance a bit.

That being said, Voss proving her competence enough to garner loyalty from the few remaining old reps (Belmont, Tattersail, Velonara, Faranell) would work to make sure the traditional Forsaken aesthetic isn’t lost. The addition of Calia could bring a bit more of that Lordaeron nobility into that gothic design, as well as characters like Derek, Faol, Barthalomew, and maybe Delaryn. Plus, both are apparently quite powerful characters as well … so properly bringing them into the Horde ranks as a whole could offset that power imbalance a lil.