I have no issue with those feeling anger or disgust, those are natural emotions in a thing of this nature.
Its when it crosses over into interfering in your daily life that its time to take a step back and perhaps reassess.
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Do you often approach shirtless vagabonds standing on soapboxes, and give them life advice?
That sounds like a neat reality show - I wouldn’t watch it, but someone might.
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This being America I’ve had to go to work the same day as a funeral. Trust me I think I can manage being mad about a company.
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My stances on moderation have changed somewhat in the last two years - but not that much. Moderation isn’t the matter that this thread was created to talk about, and usually my attitude is that something has to significantly cross the line for me to think about getting a moderator’s attention. I also as I think I stated, don’t mind an intense rivalry, or the trash talk that goes with it.
“We have not asked that the rules of the game should be modified. If any, we shall never descend to [their] level. But if anybody likes to play rough, we can play rough too.”
- Winston Churchill
So I do feel the need to correct you here. I am not asking for a safe space and I abhor the notion, but this thread’s original intent - before a few days ago, its sole intent - was to draw a line under the ways in which the game as written influences online behavior, and citing cases such as the lopsided nature of the storytelling against the Night Elves, how it undermines my enjoyment in a video game whose rivalry I would otherwise very much like to participate in.
Which of course was a thought that occupied my mind before I recognized that I wasn’t drawing attention to something that someone may not have noticed, but rather, something that Blizzard’s leadership actively didn’t care about because being exclusionary, mean, and hostile to whole groups of people that are unlike them extends way past fans of a video game race. I nevertheless wanted to say my peace on the matter, and talk about this point for the benefit of this community.
I’m unlikely to. WoW sort of formed my opinion on traditional MMOs, and I can’t really see myself playing another one. I have instead found my fun in World of Warships - because I’m a history nerd and a PVPer at heart. As I said, I don’t mind competitive gameplay - but as I’ve also said on that topic, that game doesn’t actively tell me that the nation whose ships I’ve picked is actively trash because their developers prefer the other side of a rivalry, or because they have an active disdain for the characteristics of my choice. That translates into a much more fun experience for me. My sense of worth and enjoyment in that competitive environment is dictated by my ability alone, and not an actively hostile set of lore that I would get mocked for in the chat.
Finally…
When you wrestle a pig in mud, the pig likes it. There’s a reason I haven’t replied to some people - that is that they’re not worth replying to.
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I have felt this way for years. I have nearly settled with the idea that MMORPGs are an antiquated notion, and have become more of a niche, than a full throated aspect of Gaming.
Elder Scrolls has a pretty interesting and deep story and world - but I hear the Gameplay is abysmal in comparison to WoW, especially at End Game. I might get into that Franchise when I become a geriatric, and just want to move around in pretty places and read a story.
FF 14 is just not my cup of tea in almost every way. It checks a lot of boxes for others, and that is Ok… but it is not for me at all. I don’t want to bash it, because I know it is a matter of taste.
The old Star Wars one - Kotor, or something… “Not Galaxies”? I love Star Wars, but that game seems too rigid and again, doesn’t come close to WoW in End Game. Now, Galaxies was closer to what an MMORPG should be - Players could construct their own housing and have dancing as a profession- but the price was inflating, and it couldn’t keep up.
There is a LOTR MMO, but that is strictly style, and the Tolkien Estate rules it out as Non-Canon fun - so it seems very frivolous. And again, WoW beats it in Gameplay.
It basically boils down to:
WoW had the better Gameplay in most cases. And an evolving story we participate in, even if we don’t always effect it. FF 14 might match WoW, but the story and style are not my cup of tea.
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Well, all I can say is that I’m right there myself.
Since resubbing at Shadowland’s launch I’ve struggled to find compelling reasons for me to log on. My general leveling and playthrough feels forced, and while there were aspects of Shadowlands that I’ve enjoyed, as a whole, I’m just not that engaged. I’m letting my sub run out as well.
As other’s have responded, it’s sad. Warcraft is a world that I’ve often enjoyed milling around in. Casually leveling professions. Being sociable with guildies and server communities. Experiencing the various stories throughout the world on different characters to gain different perspectives on what was currently unfolding. To uncover more about the lore, and speculate on those tantalizing mysteries they’d left for us along the way. It was the story that brought that world to life for me and the players who helped make it vibrant.
Now the story is all kinds of twisted up, and this lawsuit only personally confirms for me certain notions I’ve had as to why. They just don’t care, and it shows. It all bleeds through to the surface. Try as I have, it’s characters and their stories no longer hold any real interest for me.
Maybe… it’s time for Warcraft to pass on.
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Yeah in the 7 or so years I didn’t play WoW I dabbled in other MMOs. Old Republic and DC Universe I spent the most time on. OR imho has a really fascinating class system and some of the best instanced PvP ever made. DC Universe is the only time I’ve seen twitch gameplsy pulled off well in a MMO, and the WPvP was amazing. I still remember my ranged/ gadget/bioweapon villain (Ausbruch, outbreak Auf Deutsch) getting into a fight with a magical, St.Michael styled hero. And it was insane. Zipping through buildings, losing him in parking garages to set up surface to air missiles. It captured ridiculous comic combat so well.
But both fell flat because they lacked worlds that were interesting to explore and felt real. There’s so much environmental story telling in WoW that inspires curiosity about your surroundings. You want to dive into this fascinating world and discern its mysteries.
And with OR and DCU my reaction was “Yep, that’s Tatooine alright” or “That certainly is a city”. Once you’ve seen the worlds at face value that was it. There was no more to explore.
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I found SWTOR to be the only other MMO I could stomach, largely thanks to the universe it was set in. On the surface it is very much a WoW clone, so that stand for something. Never did much End Game content in it, but I hear the RP scene is great, tho.
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In my experience the RP scene was weird. Felt like I was playing pretend with an indignant child. People refusing to acknowledge I whooped 'em because a Bounty Hunter shouldn’t be able to defeat a Jedi / Sith. Granted that’s entirely anecdotal but that and the number of people insisting the Sith are misunderstood and not you know, completely, enthusiastically and proudly evil just made me feel tired.
Tbh RP was why I found research on ESO disheartening. I really adore that setting. It gets so bizarre and high concept that it feels in an other league. Like the whole setting might be literally literary or maybe it’s a dream and if someone can figure that out they either achieve godhood or blink out of existence. That’s nuts. Plus all the cultures and races are so fleshed out with fascinating lore. But I guess the phasing there makes trying to RP extremely difficult.
Idk maybe I’ll try to get back into D&D. My old group long ago disintegrated because trying to set a time where six people with careers and/or children can spend an entire day dicking around a table is more a field of theoretical physics than simple scheduling. Could try those meet up with randos again but, man, those can be extraordinarily awkward.
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I might be dating myself, but Galaxies was so cool. People could build their own towns in the wastes, and war with each other. Or choose to Dance and game that way. Blasters and Polearms with Vibrotech.
But it just got unwieldy and nuts. On a lot of levels.
Maybe with today’s tech, and Disney owning Star Wars, someone will get the bright idea to resuscitate the MMO Genre with a trusted brand.
Until then… I am playing WoW.
That was my first MMO actually. I very dimly remember it and hadn’t the faintest idea what I was doing. But to date it had the friendliest playerbase I’d ever seen. I was a literal child and complete noob and I still vividly recall players being so patient and helpful. To this day I actually think back on that when every I’m getting frustrated by stupid questions.
As for WoW- I hope someone can salvage it. But this whole culture is very telling as to why we’re seeing exponentially worse products. Even if all the harassment never happened, I’d still be mad as hell I was paying people to get drunk on the job. I love substance abuse as much as the next guy with poor coping mechanisms, but there’s a time and a place for it and work ain’t it.
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I mean, the best we can hope for is that the IP falls to another developer, but this culture and the disdain they had for women is an inextricable part of the narrative. It’s baked into its DNA in a way that we have to reconcile with - and it’s the starting point that any new team would have to pick up from.
I’m not saying it’s impossible, but it’s going to taint whatever comes out, no matter who is working on it. You do have to maintain some consistency with what came before or the shift will be jarring enough for the audience to notice. I’d love to see Night Elves for instance, worked on by different, more competent and conscientious people - but it will always be true that their creators saw them as tools to be abused in the service of their biases and fantasies rather than actual characters - and subsequent teams will have to pay some respect to the era where they were there to serve as punching bags for Blizzard’s hypermasculine orcs.
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As a moderate Democrat in the US, I think this is the issue my party and those of our nation must come to grips with.
It is not hateful towards the United Stated to acknowledge Females were not allowed to vote for almost 2/3s of its history. Maybe refusing the right to vote to half the population in a Constitutional Republic was a wrong. Maybe the repercussions of that linger still.
I mean, you’re not wrong. I count myself as being extremely patriotic, but I’m also more aware than most of the atrocities this country has committed. Still, that example and others should also tell you that the stain never goes away, and the actual impacts of these events ripple through the generations.
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I’m sure no woman needs a man to tell them this but let’s face the facts here; this is not unique to Blizzard nor the entertainment industry.
So I’m not sure how changing logos does anything. I’m actually sort of glad this came to light when it did. If SL was a beloved expansion with story and gameplay that was generally agreed upon to be good, I honestly believe a lot of people would be more than comfortable looking the other way right now. So merely handing it to a more competent company may not be much of a solution.
If the spotlight stays on Blizz, and you know Kottick’s just crossing his fingers right now hoping a massacre or disaster happens to keep this out of the broader public news cycle, they’ll be forced to make some serious changes that hopefully prevent this sort of thing from happening - rather than prevent it from leaking.
We’re probably in for more news like this from other developers. Because let’s face it; they’re often run by sad little nerd boys. You know the ones. The guys who blame their chronic failure at attracting a mate on female psychology rather than, idk, the fact they’ve BO that smells like the dumpster outside a Korean restaurant on a hot summer day.
And many of these ‘men’ have wives and children at this point no less. But that ‘Rockstar’ feeling of being some fundamentally cool, larger than life guy who all the women want and all the men want to be is a hell of an attractive delusion to the miserable adolescent they never truly stopped being. And this goes from the top down. Lower employees of a similar persuasion are going to see the big dogs getting away with that ish and follow suit.
The system needs to be fundamentally restructured to a point where employees speaking out actually matters. And while I’m not holding my breath, this is at least an opportunity to do exactly that.
But again, hope into one hand, ish into the other - see what fills up first.
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My hands hold on to hope, and wash the “ish” away at the nearest faucet.
Even if Hope made Afrasabi triggered so much that he puppeted his snarky ghoully puppet named Sylvanas to be his Mean Girl Shoe Horn.
It is disgusting to see acknowledged something that I felt was plain. But it was of due course.
A familiar sentiment.
I enjoyed your contributions and wish you well on your journey. I selfishly hope your initial faith in a better future for World of Warcraft is vindicated in the end.
Well, among mmo there are a few not bad things. Guild Wars 2 (conceptually), SW:tOR has it’s own appeal, narratively the Secret World might be worth a look, ESO has it’s own good elements. But depends on what are you looking for of course.
I find it somewhat amusing that I saw so many replies to Baal’s comments in the tone of “do you see racism / etc. everywhere?” And here we are.
Turns out things indeed do not exist in the vacuum, and the same plague affects a lot of stuff inside and outside.
IMO conceptually there could be some servers explicitly mentioned as heavily “moderated” like the FF14 ones, and some other explicitly marked as more “wild” places for people who thrive in such environment. Just with a caveat that instead of dumping their “approach” on people not interested, it would be among the likeminded individuals.
Kind of “low priority queue” in DotA where people reported for various quiestonable behaviors are forced to play for some time (for a number of games) only with other people under such penalty.
Experience of running around in GW2 was rather fun. There are plenty of undercooked things though. There is a limited f2p version available, good enough for a test run.
Arguably there are ways to start it from other points and use different paths to continue the story.
Like, given the Cata shenanigans of Nozdormu, it could be the point from which the original timeline continues instead of the altered one. Or maybe the new project would start with re-exploration even some older time, immideately or eventually.
Just like going forward could in a number of ways from “let a certain creative team move the story forward” to “let’s figure out why the people liked the game to begin with and rebuild arount the user experience”.
There are IMO options from “let’s re-tell the existing stories, but coherently, with proper set-ups, timing, and exploration” all the way to “use it as a reference point but explore other possibilities”.
For example
So, why not keep another leader instead of Wrynns?
gl hf
look I only suggested ff14 because I know akiyass LOVES it.
Eh, I think this is only halfway true. I have no issues with people who simply disagree with me. I have had plenty cordial conversations with such people here. I will, however, respond to “strident posters” in an aggressive way. You can say that makes me easily “cajoled into a fight” but I am well aware I do not -have- to retort. I often choose to for a few reasons. The most significant reason is, not retorting kind of defeats the purpose of a forum, and I find it cowardly to turn away when confronted with thoughts and opinions that challenge your own. Even if I end up being wrong, it might be an unpleasant shot to my pride, but that is usually the most enlightening of conversations. If I end up being right, well hopefully the other party involved finds it enlightening as well, even if they wont admit it.
I mean, it is quite good. And everyone tells me that I haven’t even gotten to the good parts of the game yet…