Will Shadow need an insanity generation nerf?

Classes Priest
1

So I am loving the look of the rework on the current beta, but some grumblings I have heard is that in some circumstances Shadow is generating more insanity than it can spend it on with Devouring Plague.

This makes sense because Devouring Plague was brought in at 50 insanity but only on the basis that it would be used for shorter fights instead of voidform.

With voidform now being a 90 second cd and 15 second duration, this leaves Devouring Plague as our only regular insanity spender. However, there doesn’t appear to be any changes in terms of insanity generation from spells other than the removal of insanity generation from SW:D.

These are our following insanity generators:

Baseline:
Shadow Word: Pain - Generates 4 insanity

Vampiric Touch - Generates 6 insanity

Mind Blast - Generates 12 insanity (7.5 second CD)

Mind Flay - Generates 12 insanity over duration (4 second channel)

Optional Talents:

Auspicious Spirits - Generates 2 insanity per spirit

Mind Bender - Generates 6 insanity per attack (1 min CD)

Fortress of the Mind - MB and MF generate 20% more insanity (Equal to 14.4 insanity per spell)

Death and Madness - If target dies from SWD within 6 seconds you generate 40 insanity and SWD cooldown is refreshed. (Not sure if this stays with change to SWD? Can’t confirm)

Shadow Crash - Generates 20 insanity (20 second CD)

Void Torrent - Generates 60 insanity (4 second channel, 45 second CD)

With all these generators and as we get more haste over the expansion we will become more and more effective at generating insanity, and will find it a struggle to spend the insanity quick enough.

This also runs into an issue with the current iteration of Devouring Plague, where the effect is getting refreshed to 6 seconds and thus “clipping” our damage.

There’s a few ways this can be addressed:

  1. Allow Devouring Plague to stack multiple times on one target, like Unstable Affliction. However, I do not like this idea. Since Devouring Plague is supposed to be our “bursty” spender, and also heals us for the duration, if we are able to stack it on one target it would most likely be nerfed to compensate. I would rather have 1 bursty Devouring Plague, rather than 5 mediocre Devouring Plagues. It also would throw us right back into a ramping problem where we would be balanced around being able to place 5 DP’s on one target, and we’d be trading out one ramp problem for another.

  2. Allow Devouring Plague to extend the DoT upon refresh, like our other dots. This would certainly help, but as we get stronger and are able to generate more insanity means we would be able to keep the Devouring Plague DoT up longer and longer. Considering the 6 second duration and healing effect, I don’t think it is the design intention for this DoT to be up at all times.

  3. Reduce insanity generation outside of voidform/increase the insanity cost of Devouring Plague. This would be my personal choice. Considering we do not need the level of insanity generation in Shadowlands as we did in BFA, it would only make sense that we can live without all of our core spells generating insanity. Instead, we could remove insanity generation from all spells except for Mind Blast and increase the insanity generation of Mind Blast. This would cause Insanity to work much like Shadow Orbs did, where Mind Blast and SWD were your only Orbs generators, it would also be your only Insanity generator. Thus you would only be able to generate X amount of insanity over X amount of time, preventing you from being able to overlap Devouring Plague. (If spec’d into Legacy of the Void, while in Void form you would once again generate insanity from all other spells so that you are able to prolong your voidform.)

Thoughts

3 Likes
2

im totally fine with having less insanity gen/higher cost DPs if it hits like a truck. thats what i liked about old spriest

8 Likes
3

I’d be fine with them balancing it so that we’re at ~50% DP uptime baseline, and ~100% during Voidform.

4 Likes
4

There’s a lot of ways bliz could fix the problem of DP being cast for less or no value, personally I’d expect it to be a little from column A and a little from Column B. Insanity gen is high, and only going to get higher, but it does feel really good to have it this high.

5

You missed Void Bolt (I assume it still generates insanity)

Also, I think VT and SW:P should focus more on the damage and proc interaction. Remove resource generation.

I like my idea to just “pop” the existing DP ticks when a new DP is applied which would artificially increase the DP instant damage amount.

Finally, I really think baseline Voidform should be replaced with Dark Archangel for the following reasons…

  1. Reducing its insanity cost to be 0.
    • The reason VF requires insanity to begin with is because if it cost 0 then it would not work with the new LOTV talent as it passively drains and it would just throw you out instantly. So we need to have a cost on Void Eruption to get into Voidform yes, but I think the Void Eruption into Voidform should just be baked into LOTV which would then “replace” Dark Archangel.
  2. Having Voidform paired with LOTV would grant you increased insanity generation with the extra “button” of Void Bolt (replace Devouring Plague).
    • Since you need more insanity generation in Voidform due to its decaying nature & I think SW:P and VT need there generation removed, then I think Void Bolt would be Voidforms version of Devouring Plague. Make it so 1 replaces the other as outside Voidform you don’t have access to Void Bolt and inside Voidform you don’t want to press Devouring Plague else you’d cause a premature Voidform duration. I think they can make Void Bolt generate insanity while DP spends it and the extra damage that DP does can be partially moved into Void Bolt.
    • This also solves the awkwardness of pressing or rather the ability to press the Void Bolt button in Voidform vs outside of Voidform. It will make things flow much better when swapping talents as well.
  3. As mentioned previously, Void Bolt can have a portion of DP’s damage rolled into it. In addition, Void Eruption can have the “chunky” damage of DP rolled into it.
  4. This would make using Dark Archangel less jarring as it wouldn’t need to have a resource cost and because it wouldn’t have Void Eruption attached to it, it wouldn’t need a cast time.

Conclusion:
This would both solve the issues of insanity generation being too much without LOTV but keeping LOTV competitive with its increased insanity generation with Voit Bolt access and it would reduce button bloat for both playstles by separating Volt Bolt and Devouring Plague into there respective playstyles.

With all these changes enacted, I think we can divert the power of not picking LOTV back into LOTV. We reduce button bloat on both sides, increase insanity generation with LOTV and reduce insanity generation when not picking LOTV by loosing access to Void Bolt.

Edit:

To be clear.

  • Void Eruption into Voidform button replaces baseline Dark Archangel.
  • Void Bolt button replaces Devouring Plague while in Void Form from LOTV talent.

Edit#2:

The 1 flaw / issue I see in my suggestion to merge DP and VB into the same button is that talents that affect DP would somehow need to work with Void Bolt as well.

I want to test to come up with solutions. So for now, I cant do much until I can obtain the ability to test and get more thoroughly acclimated to the different options.

1 Like
6

Yup. 20 insanity per bolt.

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Bolt and eruption should be procs outside voidform that cost insanity. Could tie it in via the old surge of darkness talent.

15% chance on vamp touch ticks to attune you with the void, allowing you to cast either void bolt or void eruption (instantly) outside of void form. Cost 20 insanity. Stacks up to 2 times.

Put it on the tier with psychic link and AS, then delete shadow crash.

1 Like
8

Having a “proc” also cost resource sounds like it will feel really bad to see this button “light up” but still grey cause you are lacking resources.

Maybe make it so both don’t cost resource during proc and maybe make Void Bolt grant resource or additional resource?

Edit:

Maybe make Void Bolt (proc) outside of VF to be usable. But inside VF the proc makes it so it generates 100% more insanity? Along side it having charges which would kind of act like Night hold tier set bonus when going into Voidform you can spam Voidbolt for a few sec. Also, I think this talent might make more sense to just focus on Voidbolt & passively just make Void Eruption instant cast.

So something like this…

Void Essence: Vampiric Touch has a 10% chance to proc Void Essence, causing your Void Bolt to be usable outside of Voidform. During Voidform, Void Bolt generates 100% more insanity. Stacks up to 2 times. In addition, Void Eruption is now instant cast & Void Bolt reduces the cooldown of Void Eruption by 5 sec.

This talent would synergize with LOTV but also have some use outside LOTV albeit not much because LOTV duration is based around insanity duration and not a fixed 15 sec. That makes the reducing CD of Void Eruption / Voidform very useful for LOTV but not really noticeable outside of LOTV.

9

I’d rather DP work like Unstable affliction and stack the DOT, it’s such a short duration, it shouldn’t have the same compounding effects as old UA (you can only have 2 stored up at once, likely having overcapped), or need a damage nerf, it would just prevent issues with having too much haste causing issue, which will already be a concern no matter how they handle it, short of making insanity far too slow.

I like how DP is a bit of a survival booster, and still hits fairly hard. But Shadow also has sort of a flatter rotation outside of Void Form, so having DP up more often to press is not something I consider to be a bad thing, especially if it were possible to hold onto Insanity and stack DP casts as necessary.

Literally that’s the only change DP currently needs. You start toying with stuff to much you’re going to end up breaking the gameplay and sending us back to the dark ages…

10

This starts a slippery slope with us having to relay on ramping effects again albeit with just this, its not much but its a start that I think we should avoid.

Also it feeds into what you want to avoid when you say this…

I think we all agree that we want Devouring Plague to be a “meaty” attack. Once you start stacking that damage, that overall damage of Devouring Plague will need to be smoothed / flattened out and thus the meaty impact will be lessened.

4 Likes
11

I just don’t really agree. My concern is getting to a point in haste where you can’t use your finisher because you will waste damage.

That’s a design flaw, not a numbers issue, and that’s something that should be worked out early.

But the impact of having it stack is fairly minimal compared to having a slow build up, being able to use the button less (slowing down our already fairly flat rotation).

Not to mention, as you talk about ramp up, if the idea is to make it hit harder and slow insanity, this literally causes ramp issues. It just means it’ll take longer for us to have a decent hit rather than something more consistent as it is now, which is almost perfect.

And while it’s a minor point, the more damage backed into a single DP, the more dispels hurt it’s potency in pvp. I like how it’s a fairly consistent high damage button tied to some good self healing. Why would you want to risk losing that?

12

I respond with this…

Also, with the balancing of insanity generation, this should for the most part be avoided of stacking DP’s. But in the event that it does happen, I rather a more “meaty” instant impact damage DP when I apply it on a previous DP.

I am talking about balancing insanity generation. Because its just simply too much atm.
Also, with other ideas I have discussed, I would “increase” insanity generation based on a proc system (Dark Thoughts) that would increase your proc rate based on mastery and adding Dark Thoughts (15%) base on DP. So once you “spend” your insanity on DP, then you have an increased “proc” chance to get more instant cast and resets of MB to feed more insanity.
This is also enhanced when you follow up with a Mind Flay as well as it being able to “proc” Dark Thoughts without the need to cast Mind Flay since its built into DP at a baseline amount. This will not become OP because its not a blanket amount in all dots, just DP. Since DP costs resources, it wont be an issue.

Stacking will actually make this worse. Cause you can lets say stack 3 DP and then 1 dispel removes 3 stacks of the DOT component while the instant impactful damage was already lessened due to its DOT stacking mechanic. With my version, all 3 DP’s applied would do more overall damage and more impactful instant damage.

2 Likes
13

Definitely not a fan of stacking DP idea. To me, seems like our only options are to make void erupt and void bolt available outside void form as insanity dumps (shared cool down between the two, void erupt is instant), or they will simply just have to nerf generation by a lot. The former being much more desirable.

5 Likes
14

This can work “kind of” without LOTV talent but then you have to make using DP vs VB and VE competitive with eachother.

Then with LOTV, you would be is worse shape as you lost more builders and got more spenders.

So I think it would require a lot more rework to implement this sort of thing.
I was a fan of these acting like spenders prior to the changes, but I just dont see them fitting that well into this new system.

15

i like your suggestion…if i understand it correctly reapplying Dp will just make the new DP do its full damage(Burst+DoT) right? I think as long as it doesn’t refresh the previous DP duration it would be nice.

it reminds me of insanity the talent where after applying DP for the DoT duration (6sec) you mindflay is empowered, but in this case its your consecutive DP. I would also like if the healing part of the spell was effected by that to.

so lets say DP does 100 damage and leaves a dot for 50, it will heal for %50 of initial damage (which would be 50), if DP DoT is already on target reapplying it will make it a full burst no DoT spell hitting for 150 not DoT and healing for 75 but it won’t refresh DoT duration.

I really hate the idea of stacking DP, just want to state that it feels horrible and there is a reason Blizz removed it form Unstable Affliction.

I also think Searing Nightmare should be baseline with the spreading SWP part being the talent.

1 Like
16

To be clear…

  1. DP #1 is applied as normal.
  2. DP #2 is applied as normal, but if DP #1 still has its DOT portion on the target, then DP #2 will “pop” the remaining duration of DP #1.

So essentially, the remaining duration of DP DOT ticks from previous DP will get rolled up in a single damage value / number at the same moment the new DP applied does its instant impact damage.

Yup, that’s exactly where I came up with the idea.
Also, any damage done by DP heals us for 50% of it done. So that remaining DOT tick damage will just get fired off and heal you for 50% as normal, just instantly along side the new DP instant impact damage.

I had to read that carefully but yup, 100% you got it.

I disagree. I think it actually works perfect for a talent. I don’t want to have to think I HAVE to use Mind Sear. I want to “Choose” to use it. I get that the times you would use it, its probably the best choice regardless, but I still stand by the idea of having this being my choice.

2 Likes
17

I would like them to nerf insanity generation so that we can pool higher when needed. Without the risk of overcapping Insanity, or the feeling of having nothing to spend it on because DP is already active.

No matter what they do, they should make active DPs roll into future ones, so that we could potentially DP-DP, and double-stack the DOT effect. The cost for doing this is we’d be overcapping Insanity, so it’s less efficient, but more effective - that’s an interesting choice.

So yea, a couple changes could make it a lot smoother - but doing any single change will still leave the resource pool a little wonky.

Also worth noting for those who are concerned - lowering DP’s uptime also means raising Shadow’s damage, because you still need to balance Shadow against other classes. It’s not a flat nerf because tuning hasn’t occurred yet.

4 Likes
18

I think making Dark Thoughts our new mastery supports the “pooling” of insanity as you have more control over your proc rate with mastery stat and if applied to DP at a baseline level without the need to Flay. Flay would increase the proc chance, but it wouldn’t be the only way to get a proc.

And the new “DP” consuming the previous DP dot ticks by making them “pop” would support the DP rolling into a new DP without cause of concerns of damage loss or resource capping.

2 Likes
19

Definitely yes, there’s a problem with overcapping on the beta right now. It’s not too out of whack, so the nerfs don’t need to be too harsh.

Preach suggested nerfing the generation from mind flay, and i can’t help but agree, because that way it won’t hurt the aoe insanity generation on which Searing Nightmare thrives. If it’s still a problem after nerfing the mind flay generation, then go for vampiric touch.

4 Likes
20

VT and SW:P Insanity generation - Removed.

  • I want these to focus on procs and damage. Not resource.

I personally want Void Bolt only available for LOTV as that needs extra insanity generation that the other choices don’t need due to its decaying nature. That’s why this talent idea is really good.

Void Essence : Vampiric Touch has a 10% chance to proc Void Essence, causing your Void Bolt to be usable outside of Voidform. During Voidform, Void Bolt generates 100% more insanity. Stacks up to 2 times. In addition, Void Eruption is now instant cast & Void Bolt reduces the cooldown of Void Eruption by 5 sec.

Regarding Mind Flay insanity generation, I think it needs to exists no matter what because if you want to use DP and it costs 60 insanity and your setting at 59 right after you used your MB and its on CD now… you have to wait so long or hope you get a proc in order just to get 1 more insanity lol.

So I think MF should keep insanity generation and just tune it as needed after every other insanity generation source is figured out.

4 Likes