Why your pug tank in m+ pulls differently than you might expect

Community General Discussion
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TL;DR: a pug tank is going to be aware of the things that tend go wrong in the dungeon and do their best to mitigate/eliminate these pain points in the dungeon. managing these pain points might have them alter routes and pacing compared to what you have experienced before.

i am a pug tank running into the 2k m+ range. i have gotten each tank class to 2k rating in m+ this season or in DF, except brewmaster. maybe i’ll do that this season just so I can stop saying it

in any event, I am a solid tank running average content.

i’m offering a take on why you might be surprised and/or annoyed that the pug tank isn’t following the route you are used to or at a pace you want to see.

sure, it could be because they are not well informed, or new, or simply a very cautious player.

I would offer that there is a significant difference between tanking with a dedicated group of very strong players who follow MDI strats, etc and a pug tank playing average content with average players.

the MDI-type tank is going to be doing MDI-type stuff with MDI-players. this tank is all about efficiency and optimization, probably pushing the real end game content.

the pug tank is playing with a random group of people. that tank is going to be aware of the things that tend go wrong in the dungeon and do their best to mitigate/eliminate these pain points in the dungeon.

they know the critical kicks that they need to save their interrupt for in case no one else focuses the mob.

they know those extra packs that tend to get pulled by a wandering pet, a bad tab-target, a wandering butt.

they are also going to be managing their own defensive and mob control CDs.

while the comment “know the fights” can be seen in LFG adverts, this comment usually refers to boss mechanics.

the real danger for most of an m+ run is actually the trash.

stonevault is my primary example.

the path to the first boss has multiple “ghastly” mobs that fear. getting more than one of these in a pull is a disaster for most pugs. that first “big pull” becomes the instant deplete.

the hallway to the last boss has a bunch of hard hitting mobs that stun. the multiple totems dropped by the mobs at the very end insta-gib low health players.

the mobs in the last two packs can knock you into the other pack and make a bad time. a coordinated group on comms might pull both of these together and nuke them down with chain cc and big damage. a pug group could much more easily wipe.

anyway, thank you for coming to my tank talk from an average player who might not pull the way you expect because I am trying to keep the run as smooth as possible since I have never played with you before and I want your key to be successful.

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I’ll never rush a pug tank, but if I see them hesitate I’ll usually ping a suggested route. Like directing them up onto the platform for Blightbone in NW, or down the narrow side-ramp to get around Throngus’ patrol in GB to keep clearing trash and make more room for the bossfight itself. And speaking of GB, I’ll also usually ping the alleyway trick on Drahga and say “you can tank him back there”, but not every tank is comfortable with that one.

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Or they are aware of things that tend to go wrong but still pull all the way to the first spider because they like to complain and leave.

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I sincerely love a pug tank specifically for NW.

I never know what’s gonna happen.

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When I tank, I pull a specific pack of mobs that I know I can survive, A dps sees me pull a decent size pack of mobs and they think ‘Hey I’ll just pull everything and run towards to the tank’ … situations like this is why we wipe.

DPS needs to understand that most of your talents are limited to 5-8 mobs … anything more than 8 mobs- you’re not able to damage.

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i have learned a lot form players like you. especially that trick.

i have to say that on my VDH, i love coming out of that cubbyhole after the kill with the victory music and my demon wings a-flutter :slight_smile:

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Aw yeah, an MDI pull in a +6. This is gonna be one heck of a wipe.

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It’s why I love healing. I learn tricks/pathing like that from other pug tanks and then replicate them when it’s my turn to pug tank, teaching others. Virtuous cycle!

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Fixed that for you

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I usually ask the healer if they feel comfortable pulling the gatekeeper or not. Its a fun pull with the pack on the left, the first one most tanks pull the one on the bottom of the stairs, the one to the right, the gatekeeper, the pat that comes into the gatekeeper and if we feel extra spicy the pack with the double stun casts behind that keeper. I’m surprised how often we only have 1 to two deaths honestly with how much is pulled at once.

The pull after that one seems to surprise everyone though as its just the pack in the mid with the wandering pats. It seems like most pugs don’t pull that but if you do you can skip the last marauder pack before the second boss and go the SL route.

I’ve been trying to double up more with pulling the two packs on the right side of the first boss into the boss as well. Provided people focus the stunners it seems to go smoothly.

I’ve thought about pulling the marauder pack into the 4 necromancer pack as a prot pally as I can immune so much of the damage, have spell block and have a ton of interrupts.

I’ve also started pulling the double marauder pack into the left necromancer to save time. Again its really only feasible as a prot pally.

The packs up stairs if we have orbs I’ll pull everything on the left with the pat. If we don’t I’ll split it.

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1188894521354887342/1328422607711899720/image.png?ex=6786a576&is=678553f6&hm=d6a3cde9561e7bbe962e125c6f434930194617aacb2031c132cc9417f1f42399&

If we wipe or it seems like we have other issues I’ll go the same route but split the pulls.

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yeah, i have learned the hard way that the corpse harvesters are going to be a problem. if they stun the healer and it’s a bad time.

if my VDH had DF sigils, it would be a different matter. but with recasts being a thing, im going to be cautious at the beginning. but 3-4 packs to start isn’t that cautious to me …

and I have avoided leveling my prot pally so far because I’m hipster like that lol

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Yeah as a prot pally some of those pulls are pretty easy with your normal interrupt, avengers shield, divine toll, blinding light and HoJ. Add in spell block, a 55% parry and an 8 second immunity with 2 full removals of any effects (DP and dwarf racial) plus BoS to save the healer. Its really crazy how strong Prot is compared to other tanks. I hope something is done to bring other tanks up to them.

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Mitigating the pain points. Rofl.

Get real, please…

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I would agree there are pulls I do with friends in comms that I shy away from in pugs. I also adjust later pulls based on how the pug handled earlier pulls.

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OP is funny

My experience with pug tanks is 99% the other direction with far too many of them trying to do massive pulls with multiple group wipe abilities and then wondering why the group wipes with a bunch of wasted cooldowns (not defensive ones though, those are being saved for when they are really needed!) and tons of time lost.

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I think that was the point of his post. To explain to people that he pulls more slowly than the average tank to avoid the issues you laid out.

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I genuinely do not care what route the tank is running and generally speaking with a properly geared and experienced group it doesn’t really matter in the range I play in (10 and under) so long as they aren’t heavily over or under pulling. If people are complaining about the tank’s route in the reward range then they are probably the kind of player that also thinks they need a meta comp for their +8.

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I will be honest with myself about PUGs. Never expect a lot from it. I have run in groups that have been super smooth. Been in groups that have done hail mary’s and timed it from disaster. Groups that have completely failed and completed or groupd that do the the ol’ fail and bail.

My observation with the tanks is this. Some really know it and communicate before the start. Some will put their head down and start the rush and pull everything right off the bat either because they can or because they have seen someone do it. And of those groups very few have actually survived the tanks decision.

I have also been in groups where the tank was the weakest link but had a stellar healer and dps support. The tank knew what to do and it was fine.

In all of these the tanks never really concerned themselves with how they were going to mitigate failure. I haven’t had that tank yet. When it fails from a big pull where chaos takes over and everyone is in a meat grinder getting killed as soon as they ressurect and show up at the pull, the tank usually throws insults and is the first to leave.

We all hope for that Unicorn tank that can do the job. That is my experience so far with tanks in keys. I had stopped tanking prior to DF bc it got really abusive. I didn’t love doing it anymore.

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I used to run mostly pug groups and when I’d fill for a guild group I’d have different routes and strategies for tackling the dungeon. When my friends would ask me why I did the things I did I would tell them that these are my pug strats.

Even now to this day, if there is a kick that needs to happen or it will result in a wipe I’ll focus kick that spell even if a different kick assignment would be more optimal if planned out.

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I would agree with so much of your OP if you didn’t talk about “MDI” at all. That’s something I disagree with because tanks are not doing “MDI” pulls. Most of the time it’s standard pulls that go wrong and people get mad and start gaslighting the tank.

I am a pug tank and I definitely alter my route at specific pain points even in high keys. I’m probably going to max out at +15 and the route alterations might not work in +16s, but who knows.