Victory wasn’t an option so Death was chosen.
RIP Vol.
Again, in what world is “enforcing the law” equivalent to wasting soldiers? Are you seriously implying that court martials are the same thing as ordering your soldiers to charge over trenches?
And again, literally all strategic objectives were accomplished anyway, despite the Black Dragonflight literally knowing where Garrosh was going to be.
You’re assuming a lot about the casualty figures & I know for a fact that you don’t have a single line of text to justify it as some calamity.
Keyword: “assumed.” As in, you just assumed it was the case, despite the sword never actually being used or mentioned again until Cataclysm. As in, you didn’t base that information off from any evidence, you just inferred it.
A retcon would be if Zengu claimed the sword, it was mentioned as being used in Zul’Gurub, only for us to find out in Cataclysm that none of that is true. That’s not what happened, thus not a retcon.
By literally just objectively describing them? Sorry, but attacking a city that lost a global war, and consequently its empire 20 years ago, got sacked & had its political leadership killed 2 years ago, required help from two separate organizations, and only knowing to attack the city because you were literally there when they were drawing up plans is not some major accomplishment.
He lost the Echo Isles in the first place and couldn’t manage to take them back for 3 years. “Heart of War” states that he had been launching efforts consistently for years draining the Horde’s resources, only to get duped by, and I am being literal here, Zalazane’s coconuts.
Yes, he stopped the Zandalari after being clued into their intentions both times. He beat them in two ransacked city-states the first time, the second time, it was an expeditionary force of a splinter faction.
I’m not sure “successfully committed treason against his rightful Warchief after grossly misunderstanding the political structure he signed onto in the middle of a global war” is a good look. But hey, everything the Horde has done since, Sylvanas, BfA, etc. all that can be traced back to Vol’jin. Thanks Vol’jin, we lost two major wars because of you!
Vol’jin hype was based purely on Troll fans memeing a bunch of Redditors into thinking “Whoah, Troll Warchief, that’s DIFFERENT!” and honestly, even that wasn’t successful. Vol’jin recieved a very muted reception. Going by polls on major third party forums (eg, MMO-Champion), Vol’jin ranks (and ranked even during his reign) as one of the least popular Warchiefs, on par with Blackhand.
which is odd since they had beach front and inlet front, surrounded by oasis, and subtropics. they had ideal seaport set up, and 3 different climates to farm
they woulda had seafood access, tropical fruits, bird and fish meat. not to mention fungus and foods from ashenVale (bear, deer and elk). mulgore was prime farmland
But but but, if the Alliance was given a few more minutes Varian could have totally stared Gul’dan to death.
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Becuase those two are different things, Enfocring the law is one thing, but when you act like Garrosh “guilty without proof” then it becomes wasting a soldier. I fail to see what’s so hard to understand.
So why ou hold it against Vol’Jin that his campaigns had few hiccups if the objectives were eventually achieved? Anyway my point was that he caused unnecessary casulties by his own choices. If he didn’t send off the air force, he would have higher chances of battling the dragons that came and destroyed the unprotected Zeppelins. If Only Garry listened to that goblin.
But it was expressed in the questline that entire air fleet was wasted, Zeppelins destroyed and Garry himself almost died. That was how the quest has reported. I’m not assuming anything.
https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Twilight_Skies_(2)
This is a disaster, !
Our air fleet was decimated. And reports are coming in that our navy was attacked - unprovoked - by the Alliance in open water.
And what of Hellscream? Is the Warchief dead?
If only Garrosh waited a little bit to reach some safe destination, roperly scout area and then properl plan assault.
Yea but don’t you agree that it was just a massive wasted opportiunity to give not only Darkspears a win, but Horde as well? Non’t you think it’s a huge disservice after the amount of trouble you had to go through in order to get this damn sword?
Alright, I’ll give you that. But it’s still super lame to retroactively take away accomplishment of Horde player.
In Cataclysm, Rise of Zandalari was described as a World Threat, and Vol’Jin acted against them, he could’ve joined them. But he said “the Horde is my People” and he ensured Horde safety by acting in shadows and using minimal resources to achieve his goal. So yea it was accomplishment. We saw him in Zul’Aman and we saw his shadow hunters in Zul’Gurub. The only pity is that this story was not pushed forward with Darksears going offensive and taking STV back, to be exiles no more. But Darkspears are the bastard children of the Horde.
At least he tried, what Garrosh was doing in Nagrand, eh? And Darkspears were still contributing a lot to the Horde, Thrall said that they saved the orcs from starvation, Darkspears assisted Horde on each campaign, so it’s not like they were leeching off the Horde. In the end Vol’Jin got the Echo Isles back, and that is what matters.
So he was effecive and acted quickly. Why wouldn’t you act on the information you were given? I think it would be stupid to jumping into unknown without preparation.
He didn’t commit treatson then, According to Garrosh Vol’Jin, “trolls, tauren and others” weren’t part of his Horde anymore. Vol’Jin defeated him and made sure Horde stayed as it was instead of disintegrating under Garrosh. Becuase Garrosh was antagonising each other Horde member.
That is ture, Vol’Jin’s legacy will forever be stained becase he picked Sylvanas for his successor. No matter how everyone can tell that it was completely against his character and how it was super contrived to justify it, what has happened, has happened. But Let’s not excuse Garrosh and his faults as well, if he had his way the Horde that we knew would case to exist as well, he had to be overthrown.
Vol’Jin was voted as unpopular after he was killed off. And I don’t have issues with that, becuase devs didn’t even bother to write him as a Warchief. So there was not much to even talk about. I also cannot in good faith say he was the best Wachief, becuase he didn’t leave any notable imprint on the world. Which is not a character’s fault, it’s writers fault and their short sight. It was a big mistake to kill him off before Zandalar, if he died after Zandalar, at least I’d be happy that I saw him talking with Rastakhan.
But he won the polls of popularity when he became one. I recall one poll made by vivid Vol’Jin hater, where he gave everyother option with cool avatar and description - even for Ji Firepaw, and for Vol’Jin to use caricature and mock him.
And Vol’Jin won the poll by a landslide. People were looking forward to him, myself included because I wanted to see how Darkspears would do on the frontlines, what would be their future, and that we could finally see Shadow hunters in action.
But Lol nah, have a elf ranger, pew pewing with bowz n’ arrows instead. And Darksears are back in obscurity, together with the rest of the OG Horde.
Vol’Jin had accomplishments, they were not super flashy, and they weren’t always perfectly executed, but to claim he didn’t achieve anything of worth is typical bad faith argument. I have no issue with people disliking him, I also had issues with him at times, but downplaying his successes does a big disservice to entire conversation.
The proof is that you & Draaka were complicit in using Fel Magic provided by a Demon. Garrosh himself notifies you that this is to be rectified in a timely manner, otherwise he has to assume that you’re in on it:
Because in Vol’jin’s case, it either boils down to needing disproportionate foreign help, the strategic objective being minimal, or him actually just failing outright to accomplish his objective, sometimes a combination of the three.
And yet the Dragon attack was thwarted, Garrosh got his foothold in the Twilight Highlands & pressed the Dragonmaw Clan back into the Horde. Also, it’s interesting that you try to cast Garrosh’s offensive order against the Alliance as needless when you yourself quote the bit about the Alliance attack later on down. Considering the Alliance launched an unprovoked attack against the Horde’s navy, sending the airfleet to engage the Alliance and tie them down was frankly sensible. Ships are cheaper than planes & by the end of Cataclysm the Horde is decisively winning the naval war.
A single airfleet assigned to convoy protection, the Horde’s main asset, its navy, remained solid. You’re trying to spin this into a loss very hard. You take the question “is the Warchief dead” as proof that
But that sentence does not support that claim, etc.
The Dragons still would have attacked, that particular airfleet still would have taken heavy losses & the Horde’s navy would have been exposed to further Alliance attacks, with nothing tying them down, putting one of the most strategically significant military assets in a global campaign at severe risk.
After MOP, any positive feelings I had towards the Darkspear evaporated entirely. They’re a totally useless race.
But he wasn’t fighting the Zandalari. He was fighting Zul’Gurub (sacked 3 years prior, political leadership killed, major deity banished), and Zul’Aman (Lost its Empire in a Global war 20 years ago, sacked 2 years prior, political leadership killed) who were hosting what boiled down to Zandalari military advisors and diplomats.
Wish he would have remembered that when Garrosh broke a ceasefire and escalated a war in order to take resources necessary to secure strategic autonomy & food security. Sadly, he described that as a “foolish thirst for war,” complained the entire time, participated in subversive meetings & then launched a rebellion causing the faction as a whole to lose.
Minimal resources? He had to call in the Farstriders and Silver Covenant for Zul’Aman. Considering the dismal state the Amani found themselves in, that’s overkill.
Yes, Nagrand wasn’t a good look for Garrosh, but it was a necessary part of his character development and story. In the time it took for Garrosh to overcome his family’s blood guilt & lead the entire force of the Horde to victory over the Scourge, Vol’jin still couldn’t manage to take back a few islands from a single Witch Doctor.
And yet “Glory” and “Heart of War” both note that the Horde is still dealing with basic food insecurity. When the prospect of child starvation is raised in “The Shattering,” the Darkspear aren’t really willing to sign on to actually fixing that problem.
“Heart of War” explicitly notes that the Horde territory was left vulnerable to Alliance incursions, in part, because Orcish forces were tied down in Vol’jin’s hairbrained schemes to retake the Echo Isles over and over again.
I’m not saying he shouldn’t have acted. I’m just noting that he was literally informed of what the Zandalari’s plans were. He didn’t deduce anything, he didn’t manuever any forces to prevent this. He was just invited to a meeting, told what was going to happen, and decided to kick two fallen cities while they were down. Necessary? Sure. Amazing? No.
Vol’jin had been in open rebellion for a while, well before this statement was made. In fact, by the time Garrosh said that, the Trolls, Tauren, Blood Elves and Goblins were all in rebellion against him. Depending on when you place Sylvanas’ actions against the Kor’kron (there is no canonical confirmation), the Forsaken might have been in open rebellion by this point too.
And this comes well after challenges to leadership, death threats, cases of treason, collaboration with the enemy, refusal to follow orders, participation in subversive meetings, etc.
Defeated, and at the mercy of the Alliance? Yeah, great going.
Unironically this is a problem with other Horde members forgetting their place and being totally ignorant of how the Horde is structured politically. I mean what were the actual complaints they had with Garrosh?
Vol’jin:
-Garrosh tore up a ceasefire and reignited a war. Vol’jin didn’t like that.
-Garrosh attacked Theramore. Vol’jin didn’t like that.
-Garrosh contested Pandaria instead of forfeiting it to the Alliance. Vol’jin didn’t like that.
-Garrosh got tired of death threats, subversive activity & Vol’jin’s audacity to claim that he was going to keep his superior in check and just tried to off him. Vol’jin didn’t like that.
Baine:
-Garrosh tore up a ceasefire and reignited a war. Baine really didn’t like that.
Lor’themar:
-Garrosh didn’t explicitly tell Lor’themar that he should bring guards for his reliquary expedition into an unknown continent with significant native presence.
-Garrosh utilized a politically independent branch of Lor’themar’s people to steal the Divine Bell. These Blood Elves then faced the consequences of aiding the Horde as residents of a city that had participated in the war effort on the side of the Alliance months prior.
etc.
You get the picture. These complaints are petty and comical. Oftentimes they just boil down to “Garrosh started a war, and I think that I, as his subordinate, should be able to tell him no, despite what the Blood Oath says” or “Garrosh actually expected my people to fight just like the Orcs have been doing for ages and I want the free ride to continue”
First of all, you go beyond “not excusing Garrosh and his faults” you dislike the character, what he stood for and so on. You try to cobble together some anti-Garrosh case based on quotes taken out of context and excuse all trespasses against him.
Second, and more importantly, “The Horde that we knew” was awful. Objectively it was a failure. Thrall literally settled his people in a barren desert, accepted food insecurity and economic reliance on a hostile foreign power. He tolerated encroachments and incursions by the Alliance. By the end of his rule, the Horde was facing starvation because of a diplomatic incident they had nothing to do with, and the Alliance was making demands so extreme that even Thrall wasn’t willing to give into them.
And what’s the takeaway after Vol’jin and Varian finish talking? If the Horde steps out of line, the Alliance will end them. So yes, he restored that Horde. A Horde that was failing before Garrosh came along and was only ever thought of fondly because “I played Warcraft III as a kid and it was fun :))”
Notice how you’re using a single poll, and one that specifically focuses on alternatives for Warchief. First of all, when it came to those polls, Vol’jin’s competition was loathsome (Warchief Baine Bloodhoof anyone?), and even then he wasn’t consistently winning those. More importantly, the hype was never sufficient to place him in the top 3 when it came to actual Warchiefs even during his tenure.
Either way, Vol’jin ruined the Horde. The Horde was an Orcish institution, the Horde was supposed to reasonably engage in politics and warfare and so on. Vol’jin ruined all of that.
Everything we have today, from the “Horde Council,” the neutering of our races, our absolutely dismal and barren roster of characters? It can all be chalked up to Vol’jin not being able to keep his mouth shut during wartime.
Disproportional foreign help? Really? He only had handful of people under ulhim in each case. And for Rebellion he was trying to reach to each Horde leader first to make sure that everyone is on board with it. It showed him being flexible, that he was able to operate on minimal resources AND manpower. That he was capable of using various soldiers to their full capacity. And bo, Zandalari are not a minimal threat even in Cataclysm they were described as a threat to both Horde and Alliance. Vol’Jin was successful because he acted quickly. To my personal dismay because I’d rather join those trolls.
Which was in spite of Garrosh not thanks to him and his tactical genius. It’s a good thing that Dragonmaw were recruited, If I recall correclty we did save Garrosh eventually and he was the one to get Dragonmaws on his side.
He fell down with Zeppelin when the Dragons attacked.
The point was that he sent his Entire airfleet and left Zeppelins completwly unprotected. This is why dragons had such an easy task to destory the Horde forces.
They’re not useless if they saved the Horde. And they were deffinietly not useless in BfA.
There were Zandalari amon them or perhaps you don’t recall the Juggernauts and other units in Zul’Aman. It doesn’t matter that Z’A / Z’G were sacked before, they were still a threat to both Horde AND Alliance.
It was foolish thirst for war because Vol’Jin believed that Garrosh would bleed the Horde dry with his warfare. And even when Vol’Jin was disagreeing with Garrosh he still protected the Horde from behind and he was still doing Garrosh bidding.
Overkill? Silver covenant is a small group that is only present in Dalaran. And these guys fon’t even enter Z’A the Darkspears did.
Bol’Jin waited with revlamation of echo Isles until the Horde campaign was done. And that Single witch Doctor was changing flow of Magic in Entire Durotar (mage class quest). He might’ve been lvl 11 mog in game but he was a powerful foe if you needed aid of deity to finally put him down. And even then he managed to break free and cause extra havoc in BfA. That guy was no joke.
Just because they didn’t fix the problem entierly doesn’t mean they didn’t help. If anything the cataclysm cooking quests were quite bile because orc ordered you to steal food from trolls and goblins and in another quest kill those who tried to take it back.
I fail to see how acting on information that were given to you is a fault. But the cities were not down, they were mobilizing with intend to wrestle territories back and it mostly meant Horde territories. I personally would rather let Zandalari act and do as they planned. I am not a fan of going against other trolls. And if there is something I hold against Vol’Jin is that he didn’t even try to convince them to try something else where they would achive their goals without Hurting the Horde. In his own very book he was stressing about future of trollkind yet he didn’t do anything about it to help the cause.
So it was Garrosh against the rest of the Horde. If the entire Horde has a beef with him, then it’s likely not Vol’Jin who was the issue. If Vol’Jin was a traitor and Garrosh super leader then Vol’Jin would fail miserably on his own because he wouldn’t have back of the rest of the Horde. Entire Horde had to be mistreated to rise against Garrosh.
I wouldn’t call it Mercy of Alliance, but the alternative was that the Horde would perish and Garrosh would unleash powers of the Old God. So the Horse that we knew before would perish.
It wasn’t if they grew to spread their influence all over Kalimdor, EK, successfully did their campaign in Outland and Northrend. Horde was doing fine, and setting on a desert became issue in Cataclysm but in Vanilla in Kargath you had report from orcish scout that praised badlands for being perfect place to train the Horde troops.
No, it was squarely on the writers who cannot write the Horde without villanbatting it. And since they couldn’t Villainbat Vol’Jin they got rid of him and went with Sylvanas. There was a great potential for Horde under his command but the turth is that developers didn’t even try
Right here!