Here is my explanation why the second worst leader of the Horde is terrible and should hold no position of power:
He led his people to starve in Durotar. He had many options to settle on Kalimdor but he insisted to take land that is not feable to feed a population that goes in the thousands.
he made friends with enemies who want the worst for us. His entire friendship to Jaina is the reason why the Horde keeps getting L’s in any war. He made the Horde the b of the alliance and is even proud of it. We lost the fourth war because he and Saurfang sided with Anduin and the rest of the blue war criminals.
he has done nothing to unite the Orcs as a race. Instead of lending an olive branch to the dark Horde and Fel Horde he activley tried toeradicate the remnants of the second war by killing the leadership of those factions that should be our friends. in this case Rend Blackhand and Kargath Bladefist.
and that sums it up. Thrall sucks and should be executed for being weak and a traitor.
Durotar had forests in areas like Thunder Ridge, water from the Southfury for drinking and crops and more when Thrall chose it. Was it the most fertile land? no, but compared to what some of the orcs came from it was paradise, Now things did happen that made Durotar worse, but at least at the start it provided all the orcs needed.
f it was not for working with Jaina and Tyrande, the Legion would have won at Hyjal. It was Thrall’s friendship with Jaina that caused her father, who attacked the Horde first, to lose
No, we lost the 4th war because Sylvanas thought we were NOTHING, we were nothing to her, just a tool to be used to meet her goals, which by the way she kept secret from just about everyone even her most ardent followers until after the end.
Chances are if he tried to extend that branch, we would have gotten the heads of the ones to deliver it back IF WE WERE LUCKY. The dark and fel hordes wanted all of the ones on Azeroth, alliance and horde alike, dead.
One thing to recall about orcs is they did have tribes/clans, Thrall is a Frostwolf, the one clan that, as a whole, did not drink the demon blood. I think Thrall would be a great chief for his clan, for the Horde as a whole though? maybe one of Blackrock blood would be better.
The alternative is what we have now. The Orc race is on the brink of becoming extinct. Which is partly the fault of the new Horde.
The Alliance wants us dead. Especially Genn, Rogers and Turalyon. They will try again to get Lordaeron and the Horde council will do nothing to stop them.
It will take years to grow. And the southfury river was poisoned by the Goblins. Durotar right now is a death trap.
Genn is at least softening up a bit there, Rogers and Turalyon I agree with though,
So you say, but if they try by force, I can actually see a reverse 4th war ending with a siege of Stormwind. Every war the Horde lost was started by the Horde, so why if the alliance start one would it not be the alliance that loses (BTW this is why Jaina’s father is dead).
So argue that Thrall, or Garrosh, did not move the orcs to better pastures once the river was poisoned, and keep in mind in Cata we gained easier access to Azshra with its resources.
and partially the fault of the Old horde, they could have lightened up on their ways enough to be accepted into the new but always working in the shadows to bring back the old.
Doomhammer could have won the second war. The main problems were the betrayal of Gul’dan and Orgrim sending his army after him.
I have always argued we should have taken Feralas. A place that has eevrything you need for a new civilization.
Only because Calia promised him to give Gilneas back.
Thrall and Baine are already happy with fresh garrisons from Stormwind in tiragade keep and northwatch. They have proven they will remain passive even with a direct provocation happening.
Again, this might have been more based on the clans, those that lived in the Tananan on jungle on Draenor would have likely preferred Feralas as the location, Durotar is close to Gorground (or its MU equivelent).
Yeah, that cost the Horde, but it is also par for the course story wise: Horde loses because someone betrays them. Thing is the question now can be who is betraying who/what. Is the leader betraying the ideals of the horde or are those that are loyal to the ideals of the horde betraying the leader?
Northwatch is in southern barrens, contested/neutral territory. Not much the Horde can do there. As far as Tiragarde, if it was part of the treaty, it should have been one of those “we’ll hand it over after x years” but it was rebuilt during the 4th war and while the Horde tried to remove it, they failed… Then again, maybe it is being left to better facilitate communications between the Horde and Alliance so events like the Broken Shore are not cause to beat the drums of war again.
Now the ogres hold it and the Tauren have some camps there. So it is not like the night elves would have gone to war over considering the Horde could canonically purge the Highborne from diremaul with no reaction from the sentinel army.
Fel Horde was the Horde of Draenor and arguably it was the larget offshot of the faction since they never lost too many soldiers even during the alliance invasion. We are talking at least six clans at full strength.
And was destroyed once by Garrosh because Jaina used it to attack Taurajo.
Point is you don’t have Horde forces in places like Dun Morogh and Elwynn. The war ended very much in favor of the blue team who expanded their influence.
Bzzt, Only fault of Jaina here is she did not refuse Varian using Theramore as a staging ground to attack the Horde. Keep in mind, that happened when Jaina was still in her “lets try and get along” phase. She did not attack the Horde until after Theramore was destroyed. willingly
Why would Horde have forces in places like those? If you want to argue something like this, at least chose locations that would make sense for the Horde to be, like Darkshore or Azurmist isle.
I am trying to say that except for Mulgore all core Horde zones have major alliance presence in them.
Taurajo was sacked before Theramore was bombed. The results from Garrosh happened because he kept trying to keep the Tauren in line and being passive while Stormwind and Ironforge were on a rampage in the Barrens.
Edith: Now that Diremaul is empty except for the Gordunni ogres we should considerate it becoming the new capital city of the Horde.
Yes, but if Jaina had refused to let Varian funnel troops through Theramore, neither would have happened, or at least not as easily
The Tauren did not need to be kept in line, and besides, Garrosh’s “rawr rarw, take what we want” nearly got him killed by the Quillboar. If not for the Tauren and their look for other ways (in this case, providing water via an underground spring to the Quillboar) we would have lost Garrosh then and there.
That was dumb, but Baine saw that the tauren getting revenge would only escalate the conflict. What he should have done though is send the ones that wanted revenge to Garrosh in Org.
The thing is, Baine had to keep all of the Tauren people safe, and maybe, just maybe, the only reason Mulgore does not have major alliance presence in it is because he did kick the ones who wanted revenge out so as not to bring the alliance down on Mulgore.
The alliance attacked the great gate regardless of his good intentions and it was Garrosh and his army who then finally got rid of Theramore alltogether. Kudos to Sylvanas who removed the night elves in a single week where Garrosh failed for 3 years.
Regarding Tauren I have the hope that Magatha will show up again and throw it into Baine’s face that he failed to save Bovan and make the other tribes question his leadership.
No way Magatha would even know about that unless she has spies in either Thunder Bluff or the Isles.
Besides, no leader is perfect and Bovan took his group to the plains on his own volition. How easy is it to save one that winds up in situations like that with no word till after it is too late?
What we need is a leader like Cairne, or maybe his spirit, to advise/confront Baine and smack some sense into him. One that can see the good Baine has done but also not afraid to take him to task for his failures.
It was centaurs who killed him. The least he should have done is holding the Maruuk responsible and siege the Nokhud fortress to bring the clan to justice for good. Tagar, Ironhoof and Tam were there at that point so they had good enough fighters to protect the rest of the windtotem tribe and eradicate the hostile centaurs.
I’d say what he should have done is team up with the Maruuk, who would have been like “enough is enough” and siege the Nokud fortress. Not really holding the Maruuk responsible for the actions of the Nokud, who they have been fighting agaisnt but might have lacked the man power to really eliminate the Nokud without a force like the Tauren.