Sure I could have not done Torghast / Maw… but I would have been playing handicapped.
I disagree I think the reason they set this system the was it is is more that blizzard sees they have generally speaking 3 set of players
Casual
Average
Hardcore.
Casuals typically currently sit in delves, world content, normal raiding
Average typic sit in mythic plus, heroic raiding
Hard core sits in upper mythic plus and mythic raiding.
The issue is that if you create content that is easier and equally rewarding the hardcore player will dabble into the casuals territory only until they get what they want. And so on and so forth from the top down. They only do this to increase their numbers or to get higher quicker
But the casual players typically don’t move up. And of the casual players some of them are good enough for the content above them but that’s when they slowly start moving to upper content. However some of those players play the way they want so when you interject someone into a key that honestly doesn’t care about timing the key you create a super toxic environment that was already toxic.
Thus the issue with delves.
All of the content overlaps.
Personally I don’t care if the casual players get myth track gear from delves. But the way I play is I don’t invite people to my group with out io, or under 20 timed keys ran in the bracket I am looking to run keys.
The argument of time vest into the game is a terrible argument
They need to make it even wider. Like they do between expansions.
Yes you are right about alts to a degree. I recently picked my hunter back up. I spent literally 3 weeks raiding heroic to get gear, and during that time I had a friend that help carry my through 7s to get more gear.
But the thing is item level doesn’t matter as much as people think it does. I was running 7s at 580 and beating people on dps. Which is why my friend “carried me” I also knew when to use defensives. But had it not been for him, I would have started in 5s just to get my io up.
I have 5 characters I complete 8 - 10 keys a day on. All of my toons are 632 and almost 2800 io. Each one I went this route.
But if you truly believe what you are saying then blizzard should rework the system to only drop heroic or myth track gear. That way you are either running sub 10 keys and heroic raid, or above 10 key and mythic raid
What I am understanding is you agree that to make content rewarding overlaps are bad or need to be balanced.
Which is why personnaly the old school way is the best, a single route for progression. No hassle no big systems needed.
But that is seen as worse for many, because other people cant have higher ilvl than them which is why ilvl in m+ is still easy to get, which also makes it funny when people propose that it be rewarded for its difficulty as less than half the people that manage to get myth track gear would do if they did.
Which is also ironic because thats one of the argument they keep using: why do you care about other people gear?
I mean I can’t think of a fight on the same caliber as Patchwerk for just kill this thing, tank don’t die. Like retail has more modernized Patchwerk fights, like Butcher in Highmaul.
If half of them no longer get it then so be it. Or, they can lower the bar for both M+ and Raids to be balanced.
They don’t have to only raise the M+ bar to Mythic Raids, they can lower the Mythic Raid bar to M+. Or lower both from where they are now. I don’t care if they make gearing easier. What matters is if it’s balanced.
I think people should worry about themselves and not concern them selves with what others are getting.
As players we all want to feel our individual time is validated. Currently that is achieved by harder content.
I would be okay also with if they just made all gear myth track, and the reward for doing hard stuff is maybe transmogs. But I think you would close the door on the I only play this game casually so I should get same as other, but open the door to I pay a sub I should get the same mogs others get.
At the end of the day some on will be upset. Personally I only care about my gear progression
Raiding sucks so bad. Lemme grab my entire football team to assemble a raiding group.
From the start this has been my point.
Its only ironic that people say this about other people being able to get better ilvl and will always be.
Let people that push content get better gear. What does it matter to you? When from the start ive explained why it matters to me, how my experience is affected by this.
That’s not exactly the same. Blizz put things in torghast that you could only get there. They meant for that to be mandatory. There’s nothing in M+ that you can’t also get raiding. M+ just makes it faster.
They can also add another track to mythic raids or scale down players to heroic in m+. Making mythic raiding easier is simply wanting to get rid of the content as its difficulty is its main reason to exist.
Mythic raiders just want their time to be valued. Back in the olden days the best gear came only from raid and it was a flex to have it over people who didn’t. Now we can get the same ilvl gear through crafting and the vault once a week. Mythic raiders will still gear faster then non mythic raiders but over time the non mythic raiders can creep up on ilvl.
Mythic raiding is slowly dieing patch after patch. Sad but true. Some people blame it on M+ but the reality is peoples lives change over the years and they just don’t have time to invest into chasing CE patch after patch after patch.
But you’re forgetting so much of the depth that goes into making M+ harder/easier.
For example, cutting or increasing timers by a minute. They can even cut it by some seconds mid-run with things like Peril.
Much depth. Very nuance.
When the overwhelming majority of guilds function this way, then yes it is functionally forced. Again, I get where you’re coming from, but in my experience in the majority of cases the choice your offering is a fake choice. It’s to find a guild that ‘doesn’t care about this.’ Those guilds tend to die… particularly in harder content. Hence why most guilds don’t function this way… so your choice is actually to just not play the game.
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Then it seems like there’s no reason for it to exist the way it currently is. I don’t raid, but it’s clear that players are fed up with how overtuned they intentionally make it for the RWF and making massive nerfs every week thereafter. People are tired of the amount of work it takes to set up WA and grinding other content to do the one they actually enjoy. I mean they even added a buff the increases weekly. If they are doing these sorts of changes then it means there’s already a major issue that exists.
That should tell you that the current situation of Mythic Raiding is not good. Either lower the Mythic raiding bar to M+ or raise M+ to Mythic raids. There’s room for the bar to be lowered and still be above Heroic raids.
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Nerfs have been a thing even in heroic and I wouldnt say that’s because of the race. Nerfs also happen in m+, thats just how the game is done. For me you have a bad bias.
It’s simply more logic to overtune and nerf as needed than undertune and buff content, so nerfs are bound to keep happening.
RWF imo did way more damage to mythic raiding then anything else. Devs started balancing mythic to be challenging to a select few people who take weeks of vacation to play the game like a full time job to defeat bosses while perfectly min/maxing. Instead of focusing on the average player. It’s a big reason raiding is dwindling and a real shame because raiding use to be a much bigger part of WoW.
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Raids have always been tuned for the few at the top, the difference is you were getting much stronger over time. Something they have tried to bring back this season and I think has worked for most of it with gear scaling higher and the raid buff.
Average players also have all the other content being done for them, you dont add an extreme difficulty for the average player.
Mythic raiding has many problems but in term of ratio of players its not really dwindling much. It’s more a game issue at large which also affect raiding and I would still say less than other contents.
Tracking ‘Progress’ in warcraftlogs, if you look at the last few expansions going patch by patch, the number of guilds reaching CE and even the halfway raid mark falls over time. Meaning less and less people are raiding mythic content.
Whether that corelates directly to the number of lost subs who knows but the raid progress numbers are something that can still be looked up where as the sub numbers aren’t. And I dont mean to compare it to the WoTLK times when there were 10 million active subs. Just going back to BFA/Legion raid progression numbers, there is a steady decline that looks like is continuing.
You can coordinate a lot of the interest falling off as they kept buffing M+ rewards and making progression in mythic raiding less relevant, which is what I am arguing about making better. CE is also more about the difficulty of the raid than actual numbers, less people have killed KJ mythic in ToS than most recent people have cleared the recent raids. So it’s not like difficulty changed a lot.
But still the losses from mythic raiding barely come close to the demographic graph which they’ve released which shows the huge dip in SL. Hardcore players are simply less prone to quit than the average players by nature.