“The ‘I can’t tell you’ part, I believe, is due to a secret deal she made, possibly with Helya. A deal to help save us all, when the time comes. And I believe that time is now.”
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If she’s doing this it’s not for us, it’s for her and most likely so that she can simply take the jailers place.
No, she wants to set herself free and she doesn’t care if she has to burn the rest of us as fuel to do so. Stop fooling yourself into thinking she actually gives a damn about what is in “our” best interest, all she cares about is what is in hers.
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So, you’re trying to convince us that Sylvanas is going to “break the system” and allow every degenerate and unrepentant evil out of the Maw, and this somehow makes what she is doing right?
So you want every bad guy who has ever existed to be able to get out and terrorize everyone else with no repercussions all because “Sylvanas was angry she was sent to the right place”?
Considering that not even Kael’thas is in the Maw, your argument that “if you mess up just once you’re screwed” kinda falls flat.
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“I disagree, but that’s okay.”
“I think she has a secret motive, that has been in play long before we got here. I don’t believe she is as Evil as she appears to be. I believe she has a deeply hidden reason that we will all learn, when the time is right.”
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I have seen that every single time Sylvanas has had an opportunity to gather strength for herself she has consistently 100% of the time done so, and has a routine history of discarding allies when they are no longer of use to her.
Simply put, I have no reason to put any faith in her at this juncture.
Fair enough. Like I said, merely acknowledging it for consideration.
“Taken steps to try and address what you did” wouldn’t work for the person who was crucified next to Jesus, which would be one example.
Regardless, it probably doesn’t apply to Warcraft as there doesn’t seem to be a concept of a redeemer.
I would think so too, but mortals can change nature, so who knows, maybe it is specific to nature spirits.
Well, that’s basically my point. When she had that glimpse, were there still mitigating factors that were possible for her to take to change her fate (and she simply ignored that option to break the system) or was it already past that point and so she had no choice but to break the system if she does not want to end up there?
I don’t think that’s been clearly stated one way or the other. Or maybe it’s another thing altogether.
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ah but this ignores the trial by fire of the first judgement for Christians, they will not go to the lake of fire (the word “hell” is not biblical and is a loose translation using the nordic realm Hel ruled by the goddess of death by the same name; Hel Hela, Helya etc) BUT their every action in life is weighed by putting them through a furnace, and that which is pure and good adds to their eternal possessions, that which is corrupt burns away permanently destroyed as a loss. Equally so one must in all sincerity believe that Christ died for their sins, otherwise they have simply uttered words and are still lost. The Arbiter of WoW’s afterlife is a simplified version of this, one’s actions determine wholly by themselves what one’s fate is, and the deciding factor seems to be regret/remorse. Kael’thas had his faults for instance (jealousy, pride, anger etc) but come the end of the day they did not stop him from doing what was right selectively most of the time.
I think when you are at the point where you are willing to condemn thousands to what is effectively the dumpster of the afterlife to stay out of it the question of redemption is already settled in your case.
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Unless she somehow learns how to restore souls permanently destroyed in the afterlife I don’t think that’s an option. No matter what “redemption” is cooked up by the Loyalists, it does not change the fact that Sylvanas effectively doomed several living and undead to their permanent oblivion. That’s ignoring the havoc she caused in the fact that the Helm of Dominion was keeping hordes of mindless Undead at bay and in shattering it Sylvanas doomed the living world to a zombie apocalypse. Bwonsamdi could have opened a gateway for her, Bolvar HIMSELF probably could with enough of his necrolytes seeing as he’s literally wearing a portal to Maldraxxus/Torghast, Druids ALREADY enter the Shadow lands naturally as Ardenweald/the Emerald Dream are both part of said spirit realm, etc. Sylvanas simply chose the grandest way to doom both herself AND everyone else with her in light of a few other alternative ways to challenge The Jailer and enter the Shadowlands to do so.
“She could be building an Afterlife Army, to help her, when the time comes. I believe that once the REAL Plan is revealed, they will all be willing to help her fight the REAL Evil.”
“I also believe that a lot of you hate her, just because. If you didn’t, you would be more willing to consider a plan that helps us all, including her.”
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THAT was what Bolvar was/still is doing, so beating the snot out of him goes entirely against this idea. It’s already been revealed that she works FOR The Jailer, which is the ultimate evil of this expansion and so far the most “evil” being we’ve seen so far since He’s permanently erasing souls. AGAIN just asking Bolvar if he’d contribute to her army would have cemented this idea, but instead she chose to CLOBBER the very means by which she could easily raise an army to fight The Jailer, same with Bwonsamdi. These two in particular have complete control of if not very close influence with whole factions within The Shadowlands, in the case of Bwonsamdi even controlling his own sizable realm.
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Fair enough, but the important thing that is indeed part of that system’s soteriology. So it’s not simply based on your deeds in life.
Yes, Shadowlands seems to have the judgment aspect after death, but it seems to be just that part, with no information on the soteriology while still living. Revendreth seems to be a purgatory-like realm, but that’s also after death.
Oh, I think it’s settled now. I’m just curious about the motivation at that time as that would answer the OP’s argument.
Cromgaru think about it. After head stop hurting, Cromgaru decide Sylvanas just one more reason elfs belong in Alliance.
ALL of them.
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“Perhaps she intended to ASK him, but he refused to even listen. Perhaps he was on the Jailer’s Side. If she is going undercover to take out the Jailer, she would have HAD to kill Bolvar, if he turned out to be on the Jailer’s side. There is so much we do not know yet. I am willing to entertain the possibility that she is working for us, not against us.”
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Bolvar isn’t working for The Jailer, he isn’t Arthas, Bolvar works for the good of Azeroth and it’s the main reason WHY he condemned himself to sit on the throne in what he hoped would be eternal isolation keeping anyone from abusing his armor and position, did you not watch the introductory video? Bolvar warned Sylvanas that the Helm and it’s power were a prison, an obligation, and Sylvanas ignored him and tore open the Shadowlands portal anyways dooming Azeroth to a zombie apocalypse. there was no talking and Sylvanas’ own thoughts made it clear she wasn’t there to recruit Bolvar or anyone else.
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“That is all we know for sure, but she could have tried to have a conversation before that moment, that we were not shown, to avoid spoiling the surprise. It is a possibility. It could just all be a Plot Diversion.”
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Yes perhaps, but I cannot see anything being said before such a confrontation portraying Sylvanas in a good or “noble” light, she quite literally ignores all warning Bolvar gives her about the Helm of Dominion as well as makes a remark about such “over whelming power!”. that one sentence practically sums up her new Ideology of “might makes right”.
“Over whelming Power that she refused. Had her goal truly been to be ALL powerful, she would have put the Helm on, not destroyed it, so NO one could have such over whelming power. She felt NO ONE deserved that much power, not even HER.”
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Do you not remember the very fall of Arthas?
‘‘forever more I will be the "Jailer of the Damned!’’ - Bolvar, accepting the helm from Tirion, in the final cutscene from the Fall of the Lich King raid
(and since that is a quote, no fair flagging me for language)
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