Generally speaking in warfare you would have ranged which would do most of the damaged protected by melee who would keep them away from the ranged. But the most effective use of ranged ware fare was Genghis Khan. Who used mounted archers to great effect. Granted ranged would have small swords or daggers. But the hope was to stay at ranged and not have to use them. Also Napoleon used mobile artillery to great effect. Most successful military campaigns had a mobile ranged option. Also thanks for this I love history.
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Tell me how a ranged dot spec and a sniper spec are similar. They werent
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It’s not just one little thing. Ranged weapons are the most core part of the class. Liking all the things about Hunters but not liking ranged weapons to the point where you wouldn’t play the class without that option is an extremely specific and unusual set of tastes. The type of people who like melee that much are generally going to lead towards one of the twelve other melee options in this game.
Like I said, this isn’t hypothetical, either. We can just look to Survival’s perpetual unpopularity to see that it requires a very specific set of tastes to like that archetype; certainly too specific to warrant the devotion of an entire third of the Hunter class.
Forgive me for not giving much credit to this hyper-specific Hunter taste, but wanting a utilitarian Hunter that focuses on exotic munitions is way less specific especially given the prevalence of poisoned, incendiary, explosive, and even magical ammunition in RPGs. It’s certainly more deserving of being a Hunter spec. It’s like how there are a handful of people out there that really like the idea of a melee battle mage. We don’t convert a Mage spec to that because the Mage specs already cover most of the bases and the type of people who specifically want a melee version are an extreme minority. The needs of the many, you know?
This is still a bad foundation for a Hunter spec because Hunters in wow are centred around ranged weapons. Having a spec without a ranged weapon is effectively predicating a spec on a fundamental weakness compared to the base class. To make it work you would have to revise the base class to not be centred on ranged weapons, which would cause far more damage than it would help and dilute the class identity, all to satisfy a tiny niche community that is insistent on having a melee Hunter. Ranged weapons are a good central element for the WoW Hunter class because it sets them apart and it’s also the most effective way to hunt things.
I regard any talk about pigsticking i.e. hunting boars with spears to be a distracting waste of time. Like I said, a deliberately handicapped method of hunting done purely for sport is an absolutely terrible backing for a Hunter playstyle. Hunters are meant to be verstatile and opportunistic, ESPECIALLY Survival. They’re also meant to do a hell of a lot more than hunt boars in a forest. Besides; like I said it doesn’t even match what Survival does because it’s also using grenades and poison arrows.
Hazzikostas literally said they didn’t expect Hunters to like Survival and that it was aimed at being an intriguing option for new players and rerolls.
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True, but it was a very specific set set of boxes. The issue is, should a spec be destroyed to make room for these very niche specs? You bring up a Hunter who loves everything but range.
What if I love everything about mages, except being a ranged spellcaster? I want to be a cloth wizard, who uses sword and staff like Gandalf. Where is my spec for that.
What if I love everything about rogues, except being a melee weapon user? I want to be a ranged assasin. Where is my spec for that.
And on and on. I’m sure you could come up with very specific requests for every class. At what point does it not make sense?
Already have people who want to be melee hunter, and lone wolf. No ranged, no pet, what is WoW hunter about that?
Why should specs that tick all of the boxes for a class be removed for a small group who “likes everything about the class, except _________(fill in the blank)”
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Thats a great question.
Shadow Hunters are archetypes of Shamans. They have less to do with that of actual Hunters as portrayed in WoW and the RPG.
The only mentions I’ve seen of this is people referring to RSV.
Have we learned nothing?
You should not remove entire playstyles from one class just to either implement partial altered versions in other specs, or move said playstyles to other classes entirely.
Unless roleplay fantasy attracts you to the class but the gameplay loop is unsatisfying.
… really?
You think being a role player attracted to hunters for the ranged weapon but don’t like ranged gameplay loop also isn’t an extremely specific and unusual set of tastes?
This isn’t true at all, even after the introduction of bows.
Even after the invention of other hunting weapons such as the bow the spear continued to be used, either as a projectile weapon or used in the hand as was common.
I didnt say it was the ranged weapon (though I think both is important.) I said the wilderness fantasy, traps, a super customizeable pet system, and tons of mobility. Those are all extremely attractive features of the class, and the first three are exclusive. It’s silly to think that someone should have to like ranged DPS in order to be a true hunter when there are a number of other classes which offer ranged DPS, but only one that offers wilderness expert fantasy, your choice of most beasts as a pet you can name, and the ability to set fun traps.
The problem is that you tend to look at it based on just your own preferences.
What the Hunter class has that no other ranged(or otherwise) class has, is a fantasy/theme surrounding the use of ranged combat using ranged weapons.
Again, you don’t care about the weapons, that part is obvious at this point. But others do…
To say that the part of the class that involves a fantasy pertaining to the use of ranged weapons, being the sole class to do so, to say that this part does not matter is ludicrous.
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Wands? At least mages from the beginning used them, all classes had or have ranged weapons. Hell, some classes have weapons, casters, and don’t even use them, so I don’t understand why weapons are that important. Basically, there are a heap of people here that just want Melee Surv deleted and that’s fine but don’t come at us with a guise of “well class identity blows raspberry”. You sound childish at best and disingenuous at worse.
The thing is you can’t see past your own preferences. Another argument would be that pets are more so tied to class identity and MM doesn’t use one.
Hunter is the only ranged physical class in the game. If i wanna play a melee physical class i have plenty of options. Hunter should be ranged in all specs. Just my thought
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Why are we putting class identity down to damage type?
Since when have casters ever had playstyles that were built around/based on using wands?
I’m not just talking about being able to equip and fire them. I’m talking about the actual overarching thematic focus and the fantasy in general, and how it’s based on things like being a sharpshooter or a munitions expert etc.
Wrong.
Because of how for example the hunter class’ various specs were/are designed around the idea of using ranged weapons?
The design goes a lot deeper/involves alot more than just “equip bow, fire bow”.
Because this is the only class to do so. Because in Legion, they removed 1/3 of the total number of available options for ranged weapon-based fantasies/playstyles in the game.
Not sure why you say this to me. I’ve never argued that MSV should be removed.
As for what the rest of that means…I don’t know…
You’re funny…
I guessed you missed the part where I said that I want a 4th spec because I want us all to be able to play what we want?
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I never said so. Im not claiming anyone isnt a true hunter or declaring that people who play some other spec are somehow lesser. That is the province of the anti MSV crowd exclusively. Not “BM is braindead” but rather “BM is just non hunters.” I’m sympathetic to many arguments about SV, but not the SV is for others- Alien immigrants, invading our class and stealing our specs for lesser dps, and placing a greater burden on our already overtaxed and under benefited “ranged weapon” hunters… the true hunters.
I dont dislike ranged weapons… i love them. I like to collect transmogs and there have always been a great collection of bows and guns. My first hunters were trolls for the bonus to bows. But I come from text based muds. I am aware that those graphical pixels are just representations of numbers that would otherwise scroll up the screen. You can do whatever you want with the numbers and the mechanics and all that will matter for the fantasy is the “flavor” be it a couple sentences describing the action, or animations and weapon models.
You dont understand what I mean by that and keep assuming that Im saying that the ranged weapon models dont matter. Or that we should just have a generic ranged wrapon for all ranged abilities like Night Wolf in MK3. You assume that I’m unsympathetic dispite the fact that I am extremely sympathetic. Why? Because I dont think 4th spec is a good idea? Sorry, I know you put a lot of work into your 4th spec idea. I just dont think there are enough melee hunters as it is to warrant making them a 4th dps spec. Ive said before that we’d be better off just going back to RSV. Not sure how that equates to not caring about ranged weapons.
The only argument I think is silly and not worth having is that SV hunters arent real hunters. If you like Ranged DPS, it’s no more your class than it is Trump’s America.
That’s kind of the thing here, really.
And quite frankly, whether you do care about the weapons(actually using them for abilities etc, or not), isn’t the big issue here. It’s about your previous posts/replies where you essentially say that the ranged weapons weren’t/aren’t important for this class or for the players because we don’t actually need them in order use our abilities, and it would be better if the devs discarded them and went about an overall hybrid-styled design, not just for hunters but for others as well. Where abilities are designed to, for example, work both for ranged but also for melee-gameplay.
My point, is that the act of collecting and wielding these weapons, and building the identity of your character partially based on the weapon, seeing how it impacts not just the aesthetics but also seeing the connection it has with your abilities, all this matters to a lot of players.
To many, this is a big part as to why they play a game such as WoW.
Has nothing to do with it. You can like or dislike my concept all you want.
My only point here, is my answer to the previous quote. About why ranged weapons(as separate entities) matter for this game, and the players within.
I’m not from the US so I’m not sure why you would make this comment towards me.
A big part of our problem is that you have to paraphrase what I am “essentially” saying, because every one of our interactions seems to start with you saying that you arent sure what I mean, which is probably my fault for not better communicating my perspective.
I dont have a problem with ranged weapons, the collection of them, the display of them, the use of them in ability animations nor their relevance to the playstyle of 2 or more specs.
I have only ever said that there is and should be more to the class than just ranged weapons. I would think this basic truth would be universal but we are so caught up in trying to downplay the legitimacy of MSV that anything that doesn’t praise the overwhelming relevance of the bow and arrow as a thematic element is somehow offensive. If anything I have sided with RSV proponents far more than RSV proponents have even been willing to acknowledge the legitimacy of MSV fans. I pointed out a truth that the abilities only need to appear to be centered on the weapon to satisfy fans of said weapon. The numbers are just numbers. This does not mean I think weapons don’t or shouldn’t matter.
The only thing my personal perspective should make abundantly clear in my arguments is I dont care in having a gameplay loop identical to old RSV. I think it’s an uncompromising position and unrealistic.
Not being from the US does not mean you are unable to understand context clues. Just pretend I said “Garrosh’s Horde”.
That doesn’t mean the people who play it and like it are somehow illegitimate. New players can be “true hunters” and so can rerolls.
You’re right 100%. I had a debate over this on forums with people who just are pushing for SV to be ranged yet upon inspection they are all MM or BM.
Even people who are survival (minority of them so thnx God blizzard doesn’t listen to them) wants is as range, why even they don’t have idea.
Survival is all about traps , surviving in all situations , that’s why is better to be melee. It has ranged options , if you equip bow you can use range spells. Maybe kill shot should be adjusted as well to be ranged as well IF you equip bow.
Overall it’s amazing it’s melee spec and I hope it’s stays like this for a long time