Since when have casters ever had playstyles that were built around/based on using wands?
I’m not just talking about being able to equip and fire them. I’m talking about the actual overarching thematic focus and the fantasy in general, and how it’s based on things like being a sharpshooter or a munitions expert etc.
Wrong.
Because of how for example the hunter class’ various specs were/are designed around the idea of using ranged weapons?
The design goes a lot deeper/involves alot more than just “equip bow, fire bow”.
Because this is the only class to do so. Because in Legion, they removed 1/3 of the total number of available options for ranged weapon-based fantasies/playstyles in the game.
Not sure why you say this to me. I’ve never argued that MSV should be removed.
As for what the rest of that means…I don’t know…
You’re funny…
I guessed you missed the part where I said that I want a 4th spec because I want us all to be able to play what we want?
I never said so. Im not claiming anyone isnt a true hunter or declaring that people who play some other spec are somehow lesser. That is the province of the anti MSV crowd exclusively. Not “BM is braindead” but rather “BM is just non hunters.” I’m sympathetic to many arguments about SV, but not the SV is for others- Alien immigrants, invading our class and stealing our specs for lesser dps, and placing a greater burden on our already overtaxed and under benefited “ranged weapon” hunters… the true hunters.
I dont dislike ranged weapons… i love them. I like to collect transmogs and there have always been a great collection of bows and guns. My first hunters were trolls for the bonus to bows. But I come from text based muds. I am aware that those graphical pixels are just representations of numbers that would otherwise scroll up the screen. You can do whatever you want with the numbers and the mechanics and all that will matter for the fantasy is the “flavor” be it a couple sentences describing the action, or animations and weapon models.
You dont understand what I mean by that and keep assuming that Im saying that the ranged weapon models dont matter. Or that we should just have a generic ranged wrapon for all ranged abilities like Night Wolf in MK3. You assume that I’m unsympathetic dispite the fact that I am extremely sympathetic. Why? Because I dont think 4th spec is a good idea? Sorry, I know you put a lot of work into your 4th spec idea. I just dont think there are enough melee hunters as it is to warrant making them a 4th dps spec. Ive said before that we’d be better off just going back to RSV. Not sure how that equates to not caring about ranged weapons.
The only argument I think is silly and not worth having is that SV hunters arent real hunters. If you like Ranged DPS, it’s no more your class than it is Trump’s America.
And quite frankly, whether you do care about the weapons(actually using them for abilities etc, or not), isn’t the big issue here. It’s about your previous posts/replies where you essentially say that the ranged weapons weren’t/aren’t important for this class or for the players because we don’t actually need them in order use our abilities, and it would be better if the devs discarded them and went about an overall hybrid-styled design, not just for hunters but for others as well. Where abilities are designed to, for example, work both for ranged but also for melee-gameplay.
My point, is that the act of collecting and wielding these weapons, and building the identity of your character partially based on the weapon, seeing how it impacts not just the aesthetics but also seeing the connection it has with your abilities, all this matters to a lot of players.
To many, this is a big part as to why they play a game such as WoW.
Has nothing to do with it. You can like or dislike my concept all you want.
My only point here, is my answer to the previous quote. About why ranged weapons(as separate entities) matter for this game, and the players within.
I’m not from the US so I’m not sure why you would make this comment towards me.
A big part of our problem is that you have to paraphrase what I am “essentially” saying, because every one of our interactions seems to start with you saying that you arent sure what I mean, which is probably my fault for not better communicating my perspective.
I dont have a problem with ranged weapons, the collection of them, the display of them, the use of them in ability animations nor their relevance to the playstyle of 2 or more specs.
I have only ever said that there is and should be more to the class than just ranged weapons. I would think this basic truth would be universal but we are so caught up in trying to downplay the legitimacy of MSV that anything that doesn’t praise the overwhelming relevance of the bow and arrow as a thematic element is somehow offensive. If anything I have sided with RSV proponents far more than RSV proponents have even been willing to acknowledge the legitimacy of MSV fans. I pointed out a truth that the abilities only need to appear to be centered on the weapon to satisfy fans of said weapon. The numbers are just numbers. This does not mean I think weapons don’t or shouldn’t matter.
The only thing my personal perspective should make abundantly clear in my arguments is I dont care in having a gameplay loop identical to old RSV. I think it’s an uncompromising position and unrealistic.
Not being from the US does not mean you are unable to understand context clues. Just pretend I said “Garrosh’s Horde”.
You’re right 100%. I had a debate over this on forums with people who just are pushing for SV to be ranged yet upon inspection they are all MM or BM.
Even people who are survival (minority of them so thnx God blizzard doesn’t listen to them) wants is as range, why even they don’t have idea.
Survival is all about traps , surviving in all situations , that’s why is better to be melee. It has ranged options , if you equip bow you can use range spells. Maybe kill shot should be adjusted as well to be ranged as well IF you equip bow.
Overall it’s amazing it’s melee spec and I hope it’s stays like this for a long time
Most of us here are arguing for a 4th spec. But that would make sense most of those people are BM / MM. Why would you play a spec you don’t enjoy, especially one that removed a really popular version of the spec?
A lot of us used to be SV but then it was a change in a way to explicitly appeal to people other than us. That’s why we are BM/MM. Implying that we should have less say in what happens to SV because we don’t actively play the new version is asinine.
Sticking to melee is the exact opposite of what Survival should be doing. It should not have a melee dependence, period. It’s not enough for it to have some stopgap ranged capability. It should be fully capable at ranged. Otherwise MM and BM better fit the historical archetype of Survival than Survival does in that they make full use of every available advantage while Survival deliberately throws the main one away.
Yes it is amazing that it manages to be so useless and unpopular for so long.
Wouldn’t be surprised to find that most current survival players used to play rouge or some form of melee. Bring back RSV for those who loved it. You can keep your melee.
Again same people last time argued over ranged survival complain even now when someone mentioned that is good. They will never add 4th spec to survival , it was changed to melee to bring balance in terms of ranged and melee.
Majority is happy it’s melee , only issue is damage output pve, in pvp surv is amazing, not to mention in world pvp.
So argue as much as you want and rage as much as you want SV will never be ranged again, neither will 4th spec be added to hunters.
P.S survival was good in WoD because it had tier sets in pvp and pve. That is missing. Note, ranged broken tier set made SV back in WoD insane kiting machine with burst damage, while you’re hiding behind a Pilar like a real huntard
You know the spec is wildly unpopular, right? As in, it’s by far the least played spec in the entire game unpopular.
It was gutted in WoD though. They purposefully kneecapped its damage during that expansion while preparing for its transition to melee to get people to stop playing it.
Same was said for classic. Same was said about having a melee spec at all for hunters. If there’s enough people who want a 4th spec, it’ll happen eventually.
Nope they where just trying to find class identity trough expansions. That’s why survival was never viable spec. It was always combination of MM and BM.
Now it’s in state where is played by few but is rewarding. In PVP will always outplay MM and BM. It doesn’t have to be class for those 0.1% player base but it’s widely favored by world pvp’ers , arena pvp and so on.
People keep claiming it was more popular but even back in WoD and MoP oh boy try to get a group as SV hunter for anything serious. I know I know you guys where as survival in world first especially that pippy goblin , or whatever is his name.
People like this are worried and rightfully so. They know that the fourth spec option will only serve to further undermine the disaster that is MSV. Nobody plays it. It will get worse and worse as time goes on. When RSV is brought back it will get to the point blizzard will have a hard time justifying MSV’s existence. They already do. So sure pal. Keep spewing your non-sense. It will not change MSV from being the bottom feeding pile of dong it is. It’s been reworked made the top spec and still melee players stay away. Hunter players stay away. But hey a few niche loving people play it so it must be good!
I distinctly remember that being untrue though. During 3.1 - 3.2 it was definitely viable. 3.3 MM took off due to armor pen. Cataclysm was mostly balanced between the three specs being roughly equal, representation varied during the various patches though I remember SV being the top dog for Dragon Soul (4.3).
It was also apparently really popular during SoO (I wasn’t playing at the time admittedly).
Just going to direct you to that post. What you’re stating is factually untrue. It’s not popular in any meaning of the word.
I was never making such a claim? I don’t even want to take away from you or anyone else! I simply want to play as an arcane archer which was an option I used to have. I want a fourth spec because not only does it avoid repeating the same mistake that happened going into Legion and alienating players like yourself (I actively want you and everyone else who enjoy SV to have fun and play it) but it will give back what many players really do want.
Not to mention it would be good for the long term health of the game. Think about this for a moment, the current precedent right now is a spec can and will be deleted if Blizz decides they should do it, regardless of whether they think it will be popular or not (by Ion’s own admission, SV is a niche spec). Current SV can absolutely suffer the same fate that the old SV faced if Blizz decides it should get that treatment.
That is terrible regardless of how anyone feels about current or old SV. A 4th spec not only acknowledges that how the current SV was implemented was a mistake, but it helps set a new precedent of not deleting specs going forward.
I honestly disagree. I think it’ll help those who enjoy the spec avoid the potential fate old SV faced, as well as get it to stop living in its shadow. I think overall, it’ll do the opposite and help the spec. I sincerely doubt the majority of the crowd that enjoys MSV are the same that enjoyed old SV.
I don’t disagree with you. I just get tired of the hateful rhetoric it seems few MSV players use. Basically trash talking anyone who loved RSV. I will never be in favor of removing specs. Because I know what it feels like to lose something you really like. But to continue to listen to some of these guys yikes.
If you’re arguing they were balancing the ranged and melee options, that’s not true. Before Legion we had 12 ranged options and 11 melee options. Legion added Havoc Demon Hunter and then converted Survival to ranged, making it 11 ranged and 13 melee. If Survival remained ranged it would be balanced at 12 ranged, 12 melee.
If you’re arguing about the overall competitive balance of ranged and melee, then it makes no sense. You would still have overpowered ranged specs and underpowered melee specs before and after the change because this change only affects one spec.
If you’re arguing about balancing Survival in particular… well, yeah, making it melee made it a lot less effective in PvP in general, but you’re just admitting in that case that it was a deliberate attempt to make Survival worse.
In any case, you’re wrong. They gave reasoning for making it melee, and that reasoning was that they thought it was too similar to Marksmanship and needed a fundamental distinguishing feature. The problem is this depends on a double standard for Hunters v.s. other classes in terms of warrior, it caused way more damage than it could have possibly fixed, and making the distinguishing feature of a spec a weakness compared to the base class is a terrible idea.
The majority is happy to avoid Survival like the plague, so this is a pretty egregious statement.
MM is better in PvP for the most part. SV could be better in 1v1… if your pet survived. Otherwise the MM opener burst out of stealth plus the baseline Binding Shot give it a big edge. SV is in fact one of the least represented specs in rated PvP right now, so calling it “amazing” is just more hopeless fantasy from SV Hunters.
SV was good in WoD because it had high reliable sustained damage and good utility. Its WoD tier sets were actually fairly mediocre. So this was a pretty silly and immature attack.
You just said Survival was good in WoD, so try to keep up with your own arguments. Survival was obviously viable for much of the time it had Explosive Shot. Last time I argued with you I linked a video of me raiding with it in mythic.
Calling it a combination of BM and MM is something that sounds good in the heads of the melee fanatics but it doesn’t work. It didn’t borrow any major elements from the other specs in the way Survival steals Kill Command right now in Shadowlands and it had no greater pet focus than MM; it was even able to spec into Lone Wolf in WoD.
Evidently it will not always outplay the other specs because MM is far more represented in rated PvP.
In any case, “this isn’t for everyone” is what crappy music artists say to justify why no one likes their crappy music. If a spec used to be popular then a major change happened and it’s now unpopular, that’s indicative that the change was a failure. It drove people away from the spec. It made it worse. Saying “oh it’s just not for everyone now” is a huge cop out and an unconvincing excuse.
P.S. Most Hunters in arena and world PvP are in fact playing MM. This isn’t BFA (although even in that expansion most Hunters outside of rated arenas weren’t Survival). Maybe if you kept up on the state of the class you could do better than mythic +5 and 1200 arena rating.
Like I said, I raided mythic with SV in early WoD. And, yes, the Method Hunters were Survival for their world first Blackhand kill which was in fact the last time Survival was ever included on a world first.
For the early part of that expansion it was actually the most popular spec in the game. It became unviable in 6.2 due to the awfully designed legendary ring which made many specs unviable as well as the major nerf to Serpent Sting where they arbitrarily just removed a core part of what made the spec work.
If you want to see an environment where Survival has trouble getting groups just look to melee Survival for the past 5 years. Isn’t it funny how melee Survival lovers constantly project the failures of their spec into the past?
It sounds like he’s talking about PvP where Survival remained a great option until the very end. While the Serpent Sting nerf was a huge blow, the biggest problem for Survival was the fact that it had no cooldowns in a tier where the legendary ring existed and massively favoured 2 minute cooldown burst. That ring didn’t work in rated PvP, so Survival was still on par there.
There it is… No one wants to play my spec… So lets remove what gives them an edge with the other hunter specs. Like BFA!!! I mean the only reason why survival saw arena play in BFA is because it was the only spec that was remotely viable. They gutted BM pet damage because people complained. Before that when hunters actually saw representation in the high brackets it was because of BM. And this becomes the crux of the entire MSV argument. Give us something other hunters can’t have that makes us mandatory in content so people will have to play our spec.
Sooo… no. Survival is not popular. It’s barely even played. BM, which is arguably the worst spec in the entire game right now has basically 10 times more players than survival does right now. This should tell you something.