have some bm hunters out damaged me sure. but most cases they have more gear than me but most of the time i beat bm hands down
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I think Feral Druids are in a similar spot as we are.
Sure you can play melee, but you have a ranged spec, so why bother? Can’t remember the last time I have seen a Cat druid, outside of using the form purely for stealth.
If Survival is to be popular, it would need an advantage, but then ranged hunters would feel forced to play melee. I remember a week/2 where players panicked over Survival DPS during mid-legion.
I agree with the first half of your point. Melee is at a disadvantage most of the time, and if there is a ranged spec that offers the same utility, even at the cost of a little bit of damage, why bother bringing the melee?
In the case of Survival however, the spec itself is extremely unique. No other melee spec that has access to pets also has the ability to have that pet tank - even if only in trivial content. The traps are fun and engaging, but the bombs and poisons need to go. Leave those to the Rogues.
What Survival really needs, is more focus on the talents that should be core for the spec. Mongoose Bite and Birds of Prey. This combination of Ret Paladin burst and Bestial Wrath like sustained damage is what gives Survival the damage it currently has when it’s allowed to sit on a single target. Were this mechanic core, it would allow SV Hunters to pick up very fun abilities, like Flanking Strike, and Chakrams. The only other thing you’d have to do is give SV Hunter a talent to turn Kill Command into an AoE, and presto, you’ve got a Single Target centric class that has the ability to maintain small bursts of AoE via Butchery and AoE pet cooldowns. This would essentially make SV Hunter a much different feeling version of Ret Paladin + Assassination Rogue - the two spec’s they basically line up with already.
You can all tell me I’m stupid now.
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The irony of this.
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I play survival on an alt because it’s fun. I don’t raid or M+, so my charted damage is irrelevant. I would say that the spec could use some more tweaking, and maybe add a bit more complexity to the basic rotation, and I suppose more damage output would make it even more fun to play. I like having the mixture of ranged and melee and dots, bombs, traps, etc… I quit playing Beast Mastery because it was boring for me, and I played Marksmanship through legion, but just wanted a change.
I would love to dual wield axes at some point.
Anyway, I think Survival is the most interesting and fun spec at the moment, but I have no memory of the spec before when it was ranged. Maybe some of the oldtimers could enlighten us as to what made it special then.
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Stigma. When people think about WoW hunter, it a range pet user. A lot of people still cry that SV turn melee. That it has low numbers and not strong.
While some of this is true. I always middle of the pack which is find for me but I’m not in the top 10% of raid/M+ guilds. So Either people don’t know how play SV or something. Ignore toon I’m posting on, Its a reroll.
Now Survival is my main spec. I did not even look at Survival in Legion when I play dab with Hunter, I play MM with pet and still do when I switch it up. But after playing Paladin and the slug that was I looked at SV.
I like the damage but not a fan of stacking mongoose or killcommand/raptor but it works, the movement is good, the slows and roots are useful. It a spec that gives me what I want and how I want to play.
I understand to a degree why some people are crying over losing a range spec. I be sad if they revert it back to Range but I get over it. I keep playing Hunter as I like the class. I do think they should add another Hunter range spec or another bow/gun user class to help even out melee/range.
Side note: I would liked if Surv was dual wield over two hand.
Wave at Frost DK “Hey, want to switch weapon pref”
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The angry minority is usually a lot louder than the happy majority
-Flintte
And this is exactly what this whole survival hunter thing is on the forums. 
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Low dps? Compared to the other two specs? Nope try again. Surv has always been on par dps wise with the other two specs and when it wasn’t people literally complained that they had be to a “melee hunter” to do top dps.
Surv has decent damage and even if that weren’t the case people would still have a problem with it because Surv isn’t socially allowed to be the top dps spec because people would whine and moan even more about it.
You can put SV on read for many things but dps is not on the list.
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This. Like every other class or spec in the game today, the rotation isn’t hard by any measure.
By comparison with other melee, it lacks survivability. Just do an ability comparison, it’s like trying to do the same job with more risk and delay
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At this point, even they acknowledge it was a bad idea. Just wish they’d act on it…
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I find bm to be incredibly fun, constantly topping dps meters is fun to me idk about you.
I’m enjoying Survival, but it needs more oomph. Hopefully with this class identity they tend to bring back in Shadowlands will give some variety over the spec. Assassination rogues have an interesting setup going poison or bleed build. I wish specs had at least two options to choose rather then being stuck with one. But, you can blame the talent setup we have for that as well. I’m not a fan of the Mongoose rotation, and I do miss rend/serpent sting, but its a lot smoother compared to the MM build that has a rotation similar to an Arcane Mage, which is boring, lazy, and horrible.
The reason it’s the least played spec is due to some/many Hunters wanting the old survival spec back, though it was melee/survival in Vanilla, and if you build it it could be similar to Rexxar (BM/Survival hybrid build). Instead of asking Blizzard to incorporated the WHOLE Survival range spec into MM giving it a 2nd build, they spend their energy whining about Hunters having a melee spec, which, as I wrote above, has been around since Vanilla. So they avoid playing Survival 
. To each their own.
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OH BOY ITS BEPPLES THE ANTI-MELEE… ER. Here we go, again.
False. The class, if you’re referring to Hunters, in the beginning had BM (Range/Pet), MM (Ranged), and Survival (Melee/Survival/Trap). THIS means BM wasn’t an advanced range spec like MM because it focused on what Bepples… PETS! But, it was able to use basic-sub par range/melee abilities depending on point management; duh. And what did MM focus on… RANGE, but it was able to use basic - sub par pet/melee abilities depending on point management; duh. Now the question is what did Survival focus on? 
The reason Survival felt like a ranged spec because we were able to use basic to sub advance ranged abilities depending on WHERE you put your other points. Just like how MM and BM had basic melee abilities. Those melee abilities weren’t enhanced UNLESS you spent points into Survival. Just like how survival would spend points into MM for a Range/Melee or into BM for a Rexxar build to “enhance” those abilities. Each spec had its “BASICS” in something whether it be melee or range, therefore, giving Survival access to range abilities. But it wasn’t focused on ranged, but more towards melee/survival/trap. Survival wasn’t as good then as it is now, but if we had what we have now back in Vanilla then yes you can see it clearly as more of a melee spec, since they took out the basic range abilities, but the builds for the old Survival spec was built around melee/survival/trapping. No matter HOW much you deny it, and I know you do, since you’ve been doing it for so long, that is what Survival is. Go check it out on Classic if you haven’t been around for Vanilla - Cataclysm.
False, back in Vanilla, until they took in out, Warriors and Rogues were able to use ranged weapons. It may not have been as “advanced” as Hunters, but it was usable for them. So, Hunters were not the only class that was able to use ranged weapons.
This is your opinion. There are two classes currently in WoW that melee with theirs pets, and that’s Hunters (Survival) and Death Knights (Unholy). You could add Shamans (Enhancement), but those pets aren’t permanent or removable when wanted. Also, having 3 ranged specs is stupid. Its fine for mages because they have their magic schools. As for Hunters it’s dumb to add another ranged spec when you already have an advanced one. Simply put, Devs could have incorporated the old survival ranged build into MM giving it two different builds to mess with. It can be done they just wont do it. If you want the old Survival spec speak up on it rather then whining about a melee spec that’s been there since day 1.
You desperately speak about survival shouldn’t be melee, BUT HEY . Its less desirable in PvE because it doesn’t bring much to the raid, it’s melee and other melee classes perform best, and is less desirable to some - many Hunters due to them wanting the old Survival spec. The spec is fun and nice, but it does need some work. Are you going to write to me and say I’m desperate because I like it?
So do other classes with specs that have problems getting into Raids/ Mytic +. Solution… fix the classes and bring them up on par with others… easy.
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Imagine frost mage is deleted and you had to rebuild it in arcane spec. Do you think that would be logical or balanced at all?
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You’re acting as if the design back in for example Vanilla or BC allowed us to pick defined core playstyles like those we have today. Which is incorrect.
No matter what talents you picked back then, from any category, you were, by design, always meant to favor ranged combat using a ranged weapon as much as possible. The design wasn’t focused on making you want to abandon ranged combat in favor of going into melee.
As for the three categories of talents that we had.
Beast Mastery, held everything that had anything to do with your pets.
Marksmanship, contained all talents that enhanced your ranged abilities.
Survival, held talents that were focused on increasing your survivability, be it through better defensive effects such as more dodge/parry, or through increased utility in the form of enhanced traps and/or melee-capabilities.
The reason it held certain talents that strengthened you in melee was for that very purpose of making you stronger even when you could not get away from an enemy, or to help you until you managed to do so.
Since we back then sometimes had no choice but to engage an enemy in melee(like another player who got to close), it made sense to have talents that allowed us to be stronger in those situations. The only reason this was a thing was because of the design of having a minimum attack-range on our ranged weapons. The reason those talents that did this were placed in Survival, part from the above, was also because there was no other place to put them.
Beast Mastery was about the pets, not weapon enhancements.
Marksmanship only held talents that focused on ranged weapons. Not melee weapons.
You could specialize in things back then ofc. But we had no actual specializations. Like I said above.
There were no basics to each “spec” back then because there was no “spec” back then.
There was only the core toolkit consisting of mostly ranged abilities, plus 1 offensive damaging melee ability(Raptor Strike) along with 1 melee-based ability for utility and control(Wingclip).
Talents only added to/enhanced that core toolkit. Talents did not redefine it like what we have today.
The Survival-category was built around survivability and nothing else. It held talents for better traps, situational increased melee-strengths as well as pure defensive effects. All meant for one thing, upping your survivability no matter the situation.
You focusing on the melee aspects while not taking in the larger focus of the category as a whole makes your argument(s) invalid.
Which is obviously what he meant with what he wrote…
It’s astonishing how narrow-minded you are when judging the potential of different ranged weapon-based archetypes and fantasies…
Day one huh?
Yeah, sure. Keep going with this if you want.
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Imagine Survival being deleted into range then back into Survival melee…
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The design then didn’t work for some classes, but it was more open towards the locked system we have with a talent tree that doesn’t serve purpose most of the time unless its Meta leaving many talents wasted and no synergy. Obviously the system could have been fix into a more balanced system if they actually stuck to it.
And no matter what talent you went you still had basic melee abilities. The design for Survival wasn’t strong and should have been. Also, if you did play Hybrid, given the range distance needed until you can no longer shoot, you could switch to melee combat to counter melee classes or classes that got into close range to disrupted your attacks if you “did” focus on the Survival tree. Just because you didn’t use it doesn’t mean others took advantage of it. Similar to how players complained Hunter abilities back then were useless, when in fact they weren’t.
Which still made the spec, as I wrote before, Melee/Survival/Trapping. The whole argument from Bepples and others claiming Survival was not and never meant to be Melee. That I already knew, but thanks for see that, I guess.
That or if you knew how to utilize traps and other utilities, you didn’t have to switch to Survival to maintain your range POV.
I know that, though it still maintain the basics in UNDERSTANDING that you can use melee attacks.
I know that, though it still maintain the basics in UNDERSTANDING that you can use melee attacks. Similar to mages who are able to use basic fire and frost abilities, but strengthen their core in Arcane. Its no different.
Yes we did have specs which is why it shows MM, Survival, and BM. Those are the specs of the Hunter. How you design it through talents is up to you.
The Basics refer to basic melee attacks similar to Mages having basic frost, fire, or arcane if they change their talents the way they want. Maybe more fire and frost leaving arcane at its lowest. Hunters core ran towards their preferred build. If I wanted to fully build into MM, I’m now a MM Hunter with some wiggle room to put into things that will pick up my weakness like close combat. I could go BM for pet damage, or go melee Hunter with more survivability. Same thing if you went BM or Survival or balanced it to “YOUR” play-style. Just cause it didn’t work for you, like I wrote above, doesn’t mean it didn’t work for others.
We had auto attack, Raptor Strike, Wing Clip, and Mongoose Bite. Survival build focused on the damage of Raptor Strike and Mongoose Bite as well as trap and Wing Clip improvements.
I focus on the melee aspect because that was the argument, which was Survival in general. Plus I talked about ranged. Did you not read or did you gloss over? What you want me to talk about for MM or BM? I don’t like and very rarely play BM.
I know what he wrote, but don’t say Hunters were the “only” ones who used range weapons.
Explain how narrow minded am I? As I wrote in my post, I wrote that you could incorporate the old survival into the current MM build CONSIDERING that build is focused on “ranged” like the old ranged Survival. Not add 2 abilities, but bring the complete build of Survival back allowing players the option to use the current horrible MM setup or use the old range survival build. Did you skip when I wrote that? Seems so.
Yes day one when the game has BM, MM, Survival specs to talent into. DId you not play Vanilla or even gloss over Classic? Its out now for you to experience it so why even sit here and write what you wrote? I don’t get you and Bepples 
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Because it’s hot garbage. Surv = cancer.
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Have you ever read the original game manual? Check it out. Page 84.
Here:
https://bnetcmsus-a.akamaihd.net/cms/template_resource/LO0VQ46XB1281555957773363.pdf
Now if Hunter could specialize in melee, wouldn’t it say so in the manual? That would be a crucial bit of info right? All other classes that are intended to be melee are referred to, but not hunter. I wonder why that is?
Could it be that Ghorak and Bepples are actually right!?! GASP! 
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That is why I say it a hit n’ run spec, you throw as much damage in a short burst then move back to range while you heal.
But with so many spec with some way of closing the gap it is impossible to go toe to toe, so you are forced to have some back up help.
It also hard to learn a spec when it is revamped each expansion. Blizzard needs to pick a identity and just clean it up.
I pick Camouflage as it gives a heal that I have more control over and lets me stealth, so I can avoid enemies.
The pet issue is their aggro management has a CD, and if they are stunned or feared then the target will redirect to you. Likewise, they can not keep aggro on more than one enemy at a time, so if an elite spawns adds they come to you.
You end up having to micro manage keeping heals on your pet then using MD for adds all the same time as dpsing. With range I can see adds coming and prepare more time for them, or if my pet dies have time to revive my pet and get aggro again.
Exactly my point, why pick a melee hunter when range is more desired. Also why go with a melee Hunter when there are better melee specs to choose from.
MSV needs to offer more than any other melee spec can. The hybrid of range and melee is a good step in that direction as it lets them dps even when out of range.
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