Why, story wise, there should be no new Cataclysm-style revamp

Lore Story Forum
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Alex Afrasiabi at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Isvjc8AfxHU&t=28m14s :

    In order to appreciate the burning of Teldrassil you kind of have to understand what Teldrassil is first, right? And the way time works in our game it flows by level. So you'll still be able to start in Shadowglen, go to Dolanaar, Darnassus, Darkshore, go through all of that, and then when you hit 120 we'll burn it all down. 110. Pardon me.

I do not think the Patch 4.0.3a revamp of Kalimdor and the Eastern Kingdoms being so tied into the Cataclysm and Deathwing is a bad thing. The revamp was not perfect, of course. There are storylines that should not have been left hanging, such as Westfall’s. There are zones that for all practical purposes weren’t updated, such as Arathi Highlands and Dustwallow Marsh. And Outland and Northrend are a continuity mess that should be made entirely skippable in the next leveling adjustment.

And while I would have no issue with Kalimdor and Eastern Kingdom zones being remade for, say, 120-130 leveling similarly to how Arathi and Darkshore were remade for 120 end game content, what I disagree with is any suggestions to replace the Cataclysm era content with anything else. Because of the burning of Teldrassil.

For me, nothing’s been as great as the “world” tour of Kalimdor with the Cataclysm revamp of the old world. Though it was depressing seeing the sad state the Cataclysm had left the Night Elves in once you get to Darkshore, actually questing through Teldrassil, Darkshore, Ashenvale, Stonetalon (with a detour in the middle to visit Naralex in the Overgrowth in the Southern Barrens), Feralas (skip Desolace, quest gameplay wise that zone is so terrible that it’s not worth doing despite the tidbits of Night Elf lore here and there in it), Silithus (skipping Thousand Needles since despite the Night Elf Sentinels helping the Tauren take back Freewind Post the zone is mostly zany antics of little Night Elf lore importance), Felwood, Winterspring, and then (ignoring Outland/Northrend) eventually, after a small trip to Vashj’ir, making it to Mount Hyjal and the Molten Front and Firelands story after was the best escalation of storylines ever.

It was just nonstop Night Elves taking Kalimdor back, recovering after such devastation and coming out stronger than ever, and definitely gave me more pride in the Night Elf people.

Following that up with Mists of Pandaria (with Admiral Taylor tying things together from Vashj’ir) we also had Jade Forest, Valley of the Four Winds, and Krasarang Wilds with the culmination wrapping up at Stoneplow village. (Draenor is largely skippable, despite Starfall Outpost and the cameos by the Druids of the Talon.) Then in Legion the zones to do are Azsuna and Val’sharah, and obviously the Emerald Nightmare raid (and killing Argus once to get Illidan’s message crystal). Of course you’ll also get the most out of Legion if you are playing a Druid.

And then you read A Good War and Elegy.

And then you play the In Teldrassil’s Shadow storyline and run Darkshore Warfront.

And these last two points would mean so much less without all the the questing that came before them.

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So what would you think of phasing those zones, can still go back, but also get to see how the zone progresses.

Personially id love to see ghostlands and quel’thalas updated, but still be able to go back on alts and run the old zone quests.

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Phasing’s fine with me.

I, too, would like to see Eversong Woods, the Ghostlands, Azuremyst Isle, and Bloodmyst Isle updated. At the very least for gameplay reasons. Storywise they would just need minor adjustments.

For example, the Cataclysm revamp of Teldrassil is actually not narratively very different from the Teldrassil of Classic. It’s just tidied up and retold to be set in (what was at the time) modern current events, but follows all the same story structure beats.

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This is kind of why I reject the idea that Cataclysm was a Horde expansion. Thrall was the poster boy, sure, but he wasn’t that involved until it came to Dragon Soul. In the meantime there was a butt load of Night Elf content, with Hyjal being probably the most relevant zone to come from Cataclysm. The Molten Front was also the biggest grind fest. (Sorry for getting off topic. That was just what popped in my head after reading that section.)

I’d really love to see the world revamped for a number of reasons. I think the Night Elves and Forsaken need to be resettled sooner than later, but I also really would like to see Blizzard build up some cities with their new design philosophies they gained from Suramar, Boralus, and Zuldazar. I want to see the Echo Isles become more than like three huts. It was scaled down considerably compared to what it looked like in WC3, they should scale it back up so it looks like the troll population could actually fit on it. Maybe build up Sen’jin village, too. Make Bilgewater Harbour grander. Give Gilneas back to the Gilneans. Let the gnomes finally retake Gnomeregan. I really want to see all of this.

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Cata questing sucked. Everything revolved so totally around the Cataclysm and it’s fallout that the zones have no room to breathe or open/close their own storylines, while also marring most of them with huge ugly scars and natural disasters that disrupt the zones’ aesthetics. Everything feels rushed, truncated, and dated to a specific moment in time to an absurd degree, and mechanically the questing itself is generally the worst mix of Blizzard’s old and new designs.

The questing tour you’re referencing isn’t worth leaving the world in this sorry state forever. Even if it was all outright replaced rather than staying accessible via phasing, something new should still replace it.

Not to mention you’re praising all of that as buildup to an event everybody hates anyway. It already feels like a meaningless, hollow, “shock-factor” event designed for nothing more than a gasp from the audience. The best that can be hoped for is an updated questing experience that actually explores the aftermath so it’s not a totally shallow one-and-done expansion pre-event that’s never relevant beyond BfA, and it’s pointless to deny that possibility purely to preserve the nostalgia of what came before.

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I think you’re getting tunnel vision regarding night elves. I don’t see the appeal in questing through two zones that will be changed at high level. Then there’s the fact that these zones are shared with draenei and worgen, who had little involvement during cata.

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I think these are pretty pie-in-the-sky dreams, though, don’t you?

Like Northrend and Outland, this would apply to Pandaria, Draenor, the Broken Isles, and now Kul’Tiras and Zandalar, too. Unless they’re going to make all expansion content completely optional revamping the old world again and still making players play through these areas after will not fix this problem. And more likely than not, the new revamped area would just be tied into whatever specific events where happening at the time and feel dated years later all the same.

As stated, I have no issue with phasing. Having the next expansion’s content dealing with the follow up to the events of BfA would address the issue of aftermath all the same as well.

The Worgen are tied directly into the Night Elf story, so it makes sense that the Worgen would share these zones and help repay the Night Elves through them.

Don’t get me wrong, Worgen players have completely valid perspective of wanting to have more Gilneas style leveling experiences than feeling like Night Elves in wolves’ clothing. But narratively it makes sense.

As addressed to Veliina, I would be all for the Draenei starting zones being updated. There is plenty of Night Elf lore there as well, given that they are Night Elf islands the Draenei crashed into, and it would be nice if the zones were more gameplay mechanically enjoyable.

Though, like the Worgen, this obviously would not address the lack of Draenei content that would come there after. It was too bad that Forest Song in Ashenvale was not made into a fully fleshed out Draenei settlement with the Cataclysm revamp and was still in its state of construction it had since Burning Crusade.

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Eh, maybe. But having a glorious city that felt vibrant and represented my race’s culture would do wonders for my morale and generate way more “faction pride” than the faction war ever could. Speaking for myself, pride doesn’t come from what I destroyed, it comes from what I built.

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That I certainly agree with.

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The Cataclysm revamp was disaster for the story.

That’s when the story got changed from primarily establishing the background to being the whole point. Which means all those zones are completely dated, and on rails. If you play through them once, there’s no desire to go back, and they were immediately dated.

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I’m not playing Classic for the very same reason that I already did those quests, so, I’m not sure how a new revamp would be any different after doing the new revamp quests once?

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We can do what we like provided we have Zidormi.

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Is there anyone that attached to the cata stories though?

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I think Forsaken fans like Silverpine and Hillsbrad? :man_shrugging:

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I don’t see much reason for those to change.

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They’re tied into Garrosh and Sylvanas’ expansionist storyline timelocked in that era - with time dating being a reason people are giving for wanting it changed, isn’t it? And had the opposite problem you stated for the Worgen: Silverpine was the continuation of their storyline, and Worgen players couldn’t play it.

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I don’t know. Cata demolished memories along with those zones. It is a reason Classic is the deal it is. There is a lot of sub-par zones the Alliance is still stuck with. I would like to dump those zones either for what had been there before or try our luck with a new version of it.

I know I referred to Teldrassil as the Red Wedding in another thread but it does strike me as being similar to the Snap from Infinity War. Despite everything the defenders failed and a lot of innocent people died (The Snap or Teldrassil).

But In Endgame when you reach the point when Cap says the iconic words “Avengers Assemble”, you know then that sticking with the story despite the downer moments was worth it.

If the Devs/writers can’t pull off an “Avengers Assemble” moment for the Alliance then having stuck with the story through this isn’t going to end up being worth it.

Then having the husk of Teldrassil standing there reminding you it had never been worth it isn’t going to be a good thing.

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Some time dating is worse than others.

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What an old world revamp would mean, in the final sense, would be the opportunity to see the world as it is currently. To become reinvested in the lands, peoples and places that should be the most important to us, to raise up new characters from these places, to provide a sense of home and humanity, and for Blizzard to stop hiding from the massive status quo changes they’ve thrown in for shock value.

I think it’s more than a good idea. I think it’s absolutely necessary. Cataclysm questing has been around forever, it’s dated, it makes no sense, and it made a bunch of zones just look ugly and torn apart. The pop culture references are out of control, continuity is non-existent, and I’m sympathetic to wanting pre-Burning Night Elf Culture to remain present in the game, but it can’t be like that forever. Seriously, one of the worst things about the story of WoW in terms of getting more people engaged about it is the time-bending, reality-shattering nature of a first-time leveling experience.

Honestly, in my ideal Rise of the Black Empire expansion, there would be no new zones - max leveling would take place in the old ones, thanks to scaling and level squishes. Hell, maybe not even in the patches - maybe some areas like silithus could be blocked off at release, and they could be the patch zones. Food for thought.

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I personally do want something done with EK/Kalimdor be it a Cata style revamp or even something similar to the Darkshore phasing.

From Cata onwards the world has taken so much punishment from a combination of Deathwing and Horde (sorry Horde players, but you know I’m right), I want an expansion where we focus on fixing the problems across Azeroth and making the place visually nice to look at again rather than zones filled with fissures and blight pools everywhere.

Just one expansion of healing instead of destroying is all I ask.

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