Why Preach is wrong

Community General Discussion
1

“The game is busted”
“Player power shouldn’t be tied to Covenants”
“WOW’s biggest problem is with balance in some way or another”

These comments, or one’s very similar to them are made by big-time streamers like Preach, and then argued by what seems like a high number of players. Now this isn’t an attack on Mike or anyone else making this argument - I really enjoy watching his videos and he often has a lot of good points and shares content I appreciate. I respectfully disagree with him on how player power is being handled and offer my counter argument. I am also not trying to incite anger in anyone who reads this nor be the recipient of internet attacks. Just a player trying to provide input and engage others who want to discuss, in a friendly and respectful manner.

The thing that most players (I’ll argue 100% of us) want is for the game to make or allow us feel unique and special – and in many cases that’s tied to player power.

The argument made by Preach and others I disagree with is this:

“I play all aspects of the game. I do Elemental Shaman in Mythic +, I Prot tank with my Pally in raids, I PVP with my Warlock, I play XYZ spec on this raid boss and ABC other on the next – and I as a player have wide variance in success across these many aspects of the game. In some cases my class/spec/covenant is as awesome and others it’s garbage.” This is in essence their argument to why the game is so “Busted”.

When you make the game so that ALL players are made to feel Unique and Special in ALL aspects of the game – then NO ONE is unique or special.

I believe “Bring the player not the class” was the event that started the downfall of WOW from 12M subscribers to the 3M we have today. For example…In any RPG the bard in the party isn’t going to be super effective in a fight with the big bad armored boss who is immune to magic. The Firelord is going to kill the wizard that only learned frost spells with ease.

Not everyone can or should feel special in every setting. “Oh my gawd, my spec is awful in this situation” is the argument you hear over and over and over again. And to that I say – YES, deal with it. What that likely means is that someone else (playing a diff spec, diff covenant, diff choices) IS special in that same situation. This is a MMORPG - not a shooter. If you want a game where everything is balanced and everything is 100% skill based - Blizzard makes a game for that. It’s called Overwatch. If you want a game where you are a God and the center of the world and good in every setting there is a game for that too - it’s called Skyrim. WoW isn’t balanced and never will be, AND should not be, at least not in ALL situations.

Giving every player the ability to de-curse, or every player the same effectiveness of CC, or every player the same DPS (within 10% is what they want) in raids will homogenize the entire player population base. That started in Cataclysm…and the watered down, uninteresting abilities have been here every since. Boring.

Blizzard creates really neat and powerful abilities that inevitably create balance issues – because they are SUPER powerful. Then other players who don’t play that class or have that legendary or chose that Covenant start to complain - that they aren’t as special. So Blizz tries to give everyone Super special stuff. And when we all have super powers in all settings, no one is Super… So Blizz then pulls out the NERF bat and makes everything bland and uninteresting. And removes the controversy.

This is what is happening in Shadowlands right now. Nerfs galore. Why? Because Blizz is trying to satisfy something that should never be satisfied.

This isn’t a game you play and then beat. Look, sometimes you’re gonna be super powerful and sometimes you’re gonna be weak. Over time you’ll get your turn in the sun. It’s okay.

"But OMG - there is a 30% disparity between Affliction Warlock and Ret Paladin on the 3rd boss of the first raid in Shadowlands. Look at these parses. It’s a travesty. No raid leader will invite my Ret Paladin into raids. I’m doomed. "

To the above person I say be patient. If you must always be one of the best specs then play one. But don’t keep asking Blizz to make you special in all situations – cause let me be the first to tell you – you ain’t.

My $.02 for what it’s worth.

78 Likes
2

You’re playing the wrong genre of game, and power will never make you feel unique, unless that power is overwhelmingly strong, not mathematically inferior to the norm.

Well, let me rephrase that : you will be unique. Uniquely mocked and ridiculed for making a mathematically wrong choice.

The argument you make I read often : Power should play a role in Covenant choice, meaning we should choose a Covenant based on its power. That’s the thing Mike and others are saying : why even offer a choice if there’s a correct and incorrect answer, which is what a Power choice ultimately. It’s anti-RPG to give the user a mathematical equation to solve.

The DM guide for AD&D 2nd warns against these types of numerical campaigns. A good RPG experience starts with story weaving and pathing. A branching choice should be made within the context of the story, and should be presented as a question of loyalty and morality to the players so they make choices they feel good Role-Playing through.

If the choice is “Longsword +5” or “Longsword +4”, that’s not a true choice.

139 Likes
3

As a Shaman, I don’t - as an individual - need to feel special. But the Shaman should feel unique to other classes and still have a reason to be picked and taken to content. That consistently isn’t the case.

And disagreement on this point needs to provide a reason why Shaman population numbers have been 7% of the player base for years.

29 Likes
4

Preach is right, druids should be able to be fully effective healing, melee dps, tank, and ranged dps, and be competitive in all of these in both pvp and pve, with no unnecessary resistance making it difficult/gated to change roles. That’s called balance, duh. I am not biased btw.

32 Likes
6

“If the choice is “Longsword +5” or “Longsword +4”, that’s not a true choice”

But that isn’t what is happening. Rather:

You can choose 3 rewards

Longsword +4, Trident +1, Longbow +1
Longsword +3, Trident +2, Longbow +1
Longsword +2, Trident +2, Longbow +4

this is the choice system Blizz has created in WOW…

And what people are in essence asking for is:

Longsword +4, Trident +4, Longbow +4

which is no choice at all.

Now removing power from all fantasy elements of the game is an interesting idea…but WOW has never been like that and like so many things - the idea sounds interesting…but none of us know how exactly that would feel or whether it would improve the game.

13 Likes
7

I like Preach. I agree with most of what he says.

24 Likes
8

This is still no choice. Longbow is trash, it’s dead. The choice is between Trident and Longsword. Longsword is 1d8 of damage, and is your weapon specialization, so you get 2 attacks early on with it. So there’s no choice there :

Wins. Because math solved it.

No, you see what people are asking for is not :

It’s this :

"You come to a crossroads. Far on the horizon, on the path that goes left, you see a forest. In it, you glimpse what seems to be a great castle, but there is an eerie silence and lifelessness about the woods and the structure. On your right, the road spirals down into a valley. At the bottom, near a river’s bank, you see what seems to be an outpost, with some plumes of smoke coming from the dwellings within. You hear a very faint of echo of what seems to be music caught in the wind coming up from it.

Do you head Left or Right ?"

WoW has never locked story elements behind power choices.

66 Likes
9

But this is precisely what he is getting frustrated about in his videos, you’re that guy he complains about in his videos.
It isn’t about all classes and specs being unique and special and topping the meters, it’s about certain specs doing literally 40% of the DPS another spec is doing.
Or a (random choice) Frost Mage doing 30% less DPS than another Frost Mage based on one talent in all areas.

You’re arguing what you think his argument is, and not what his actual argument is.

No no no no NO!
You and preach agree, you just do not understand him for some reason.

He wants what you described, but that is not what SL is currently set up to me. That is what Blizzard has sold you as it being. (I am paraphrasing Preach there, because it’s the best way to put it).

45 Likes
10

I don’t see any daggers in there, I guess RNGesus truly hates me.

I agree with neither preach nor you OP.

1 Like
11

Well said madam.

1 Like
12

respectfully - I’m a girl… name is Christine, in Houston TX. Easy mistake to make as most folks assume everyone who plays is a guy. Not the case here :slight_smile:

3 Likes
13

If feeling unique and special were a priority to me I wouldn’t be playing an MMO tbh.

9 Likes
14

Sorry about that ill correct it.

15

No, its happening because it’s not just a matter of a spec being slightly worse in some content. There was specs doing 50%+ more damage than other.

That’s quite literally not whats happening. Most people have learned to deal with this as it’s not a new thing for there to be bosses that are better for melee or ranged, or being better for DOT classes. The issue was across the board certain specs were so far above or below the average. There were literal tanks & healers doing more DPS than DPS specs, how can you say that’s OK?

7 Likes
16

maybe it’s his Australian accent :slight_smile: I like him, a lot.
In a video Ion asks him if he thinks it would be a good idea for the end game to have every Hunter end up choosing the same weapons, the same talents, the same gear. Ion asks, if the game were designed that way, so that there was a specific path and every hunter was the same - do you think that would be a good design,

Preach says Yes…and then goes on to say that the reason he likes that system is because then the only thing that would differentiate his hunter from another would be his skill.

That answer is one that REMOVES choice. not provides it. Go watch the video

5 Likes
17

I appreciate you taking the time to formulate your opinion, but I profoundly disagree.

Different content is enjoyed by different people, and unlike a single player game, it’s a wide variety that offers different incentives for different players. But the big thing is that a person doesn’t only fall into one category of player, not always.

I enjoy world content, I enjoy questing, I enjoy my characters having an RP feel to them, all of my characters have “legit” names as I envision them in the world. But I also enjoy M+, and many other elements of the game. What appeals to me varies based on the content I’m doing at the time.

My biggest issue with covenants has absolutely nothing to do with the balance of them, and everything to do with how fun an ability is in the situation I’m in. If I’m playing Torghast, I might have something that speaks more for how I’m playing, but it’s going to be very different in M+.

For example, in Torghast I’ll be playing solo, and I’ll be building my tanks for mostly defense, which will make clears a lot longer. In M+, that’s actually not a good idea, as you want to go for more damage. I shouldn’t have to choose between what I like in one form of content and intentionally doing worse in group content.

12 Likes
19

Haha you clearly missed the point of his whole argument And have interpreted it in some weird way we to you versus him any way hood luck to you in the half thought out systems land

9 Likes
20

Having the capacity to be good at all things doesn’t mean that you’re actually good at all things.

Also? Given how rabid Blizzard is about promoting all aspects of the games, they shouldn’t be doing anything to make it harder to do all aspects of the game.

No, Blizzard is just being stubborn in the fact of negative feedback to their ideas.

People aren’t upset over “30% on one fight”, it’s a massive discrepancy on many fights or across multiple aspects of the game.

Or, just maybe, people can give feedback about the game. And if you don’t like that? Then don’t visit the forums.

7 Likes
21

arnt most preachers though?

2 Likes
22

From what I remember, uniqueness took a large hit with Cataclysm and then the homogenization continued from there. Yes I miss uniqueness, but they could do a better job with balancing. I realize it is difficult, but they most definitely wait much too long to tweak OP and UP specs and abilities.