I wasn’t saying the alliance had to be anything. When I was saying that I felt the horde lost its misunderstood monster theme, it’s because I felt the game instead took it in a direction where the in-game universe fully understands what the horde is doing and that they’re basically being the monsters that the game is pretending they’re not.
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Because both Anduin and Sylvanas are Mary Sue self-inserts
I kind of miss the concept of the orcs only being warlike when it was needed and they were usually peaceful and led by their Elders/Shaman, who just wanted to live in harmony with the land and only certain clans, like the Warsong were more aggressive than others. They butchered that of course, and we all know blizzards penchant for p|ssing on the troll race whenever they get the chance to.
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And which the narrative bends over backwards to paint in what blizzard considers Morally Grey(though it doesn’t mean what blizz thinks it does) for sylvanas and Anduin ALWAYS having to be right, regardless of the situation.
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The worgen being on the alliance doesn’t take away from the horde’s theme anymore than having blood elves does.
I didn’t mean to say the worgen took it, although I can see how it came off that way. I just meant they represent a moment where I felt those themes were worn away on the faction I play, while the concept of the worgen (that I thought would represent perfectly) was added to the alliance. It’s more like two coincidences that happen to line up in the same questing experience.
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In all fairness…there have been very real wars fought in the real world over a bad call at an international soccer match…
Just saying.
Sorry if this necros the thread.
No, this is where, i think, the Horde is actually in danger of completely losing their fantasy. If orcs stop being warlike, if trolls become civilized, if Forsaken all become like Calia, then what is the difference between them and humans?
You don’t have to be peace-loving, civilized and look pretty to not be evil. Which was the whole idea behind the “misunderstood monster” thing.
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Oh, I know, and I agree. I’ve had a conversation in another thread about how poorly Blizzard has mishandled the Orcs,Worgen and the other Monster Races Because of their incompentence and need for Human Potential to reign supreme. It irks me how the narrative bends over backwards to make Humans and the Beautiful Elves right in all things they do. Unless they’re night elves. Blizz loves pissing on them every chance they get.
Yeah, but I want to emphasize that I want monster races to be gross and problematic and still be considered good, have lawful and sympathetic characters and not automatically be associated with villains. That was the vibe we got from earlier lore, but i feel like Blizz has been stepping further and further away from it.
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I just want the orcs, worgen, trolls going back to being Monstrous AND still be Morally Grey. Doing questionable stuff, not because they enjoyed it, but because it was necessary for survival. It’s not a hard concept to write, I don’t get why blizzard fails at it soo badly. Monstrous doesn’t automatically mean they have to be evil and saturday morning cartoon bad guys. Nobody wants that.
I hope I’m making sense here, because it seems like we both want the same exact thing. 
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The thing is they could still do this and not even have anything to do with the opposing faction.
Take Worgen for example. Blizzard could easily write something where Stormwind is dealing with Defias Brotherhood resurgance and while they want to settle it peacefully and bring the rebellion to an end and arrest the ones involved, they have Worgen there who are just savage and end up killing the Defias Brotherhood members.
It isn’t necessarily because they are evil and enjoy it, but because that is how Worgen are, they enjoy the thrill of hunting and killing because of Goldrinn so they can get carried away. Stuff like that could easily show a darker side of the Alliance, and Worgen in this case, without it becoming villainous to the Horde.
That is sort of a bad example because it is a rehash of stuff we have already seen, plus I don’t like the idea of Worgen just being lapdogs to Stormwind more than they already are, but you get the idea I am trying to lay down. Blizzard could easily do this for Worgen, Orce, Forsaken, Trolls the darker more monstrous races.
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I get what your saying and we’re both on the same page for what we want the Worgen in particular to be. I want them to be the thing that goes bump in the night, the only thing people like the forsaken look over their shoulder for while traveling forests alone and such.
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“More people liking things” hasn’t really stopped Blizzard from doing what they want. If it did, we’d see a lot more Blood elf stuff instead of sad orcs.
Anduin is posted everywhere BECAUSE Blizzard likes him.
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And Blizzard STILL hasn’t learned, most of the player base doesn’t care what they like and we’re tired of them forcing their sh|tty self inserts and poorly written characters like Anduin and Calia down our throats.
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In the minority, but I don’t think the misunderstood-monsters theme is really necessary anymore. Ever since the introduction of Blood Elves (and others like Nightborne, Zandalari), the narrative has evolved into one of just two differing superpowers with different political beliefs and agendas.
Races join/remain with the Horde or Alliance based on what leads to the most convenient alliance for them. Nightborne join the Horde because of cultural connection with Blood Elves, Void Elves join the Alliance after being kicked out of Silvermoon, Tauren join the Horde due to bonds formed during hardship, the Kul’tirans and Zandalari join the Alliance and Horde due to hardworked political negotiation, etc…
Overarching faction themes have been long dead, and it’s probably more politically interesting that way.
I suppose so. And it’s not like the theme could carry on forever; there’s a logical end where you have to understand the monster sooner or later. It just flipped in the worst direction possible, in my opinion. 
You’re not wrong. Frankly, both the current Horde and current Alliance are very young political entities, and have had a constant influx of growth and change. It would be nice to have a little time to just let things settle and build. We really need some quite moments to breath.
I may be in the minority, but I conceptually at least like the idea of a Horde council; and the removal of the Warchief position. That role has no cultural significant to any other race but the Orcs, and even with them it had mostly negative connotations. It was also a position that was really growing thin in practicality the more diverse the Horde really became. As much as the Alliance players may hate it, but even the High King makes more sense for the Alliance if only because of all of the shared cultural norms amongst most of their peoples; than the Warchief did for the Horde by the end of BfA. What Blizz actually does with the Council on the other hand … I’m not optimistic.
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And to the point, the Horde no longer exists as the “join us if you’re struggling to survive and need allies” faction: it’s now a thriving world superpower. Their reason for forming in the first place is now gone. Now that they are a stable governing entity, their reason for existing is no different than any other government: continuity of the well-being of its constituents.
I guess the point is that yes, the Horde has lost its original theme, but there is literally no other logical way to go now. The Horde is a normal, boring government with normal, boring politics and goals, but there’s just no way to believably avoid this from happening eventually.
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Well … sorta. Blizzard never really likes to address things like the unsolved problems of regular famines in Durotar and the Barrens. The Horde Faction has become a world superpower, but in terms of resources and territories its not doing well. The Kalimdor Horde alone is now trying to support 5 different communities AND the Forsaken refugees (since we have no idea what’s going on with their territories) on a tiny fraction of some of the most destitute land on the planet. Military strength isn’t really the issue, essential resources, land, and poverty is.
The Kalimdor Horde have always had issues with securing the basics, and it was an issue that was just sort of swept under the rug when Blizz decided to villain bat Garrosh. Mulgore just cannot support all those mouths without damaging itself long-term. And overseas expansion isn’t … practical for basics. Its really costly and unstable to rely on imports like that.
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