Why is it ok for Sylvanas to kill Horde troops, but not Baine?

[Pyrogar-proudmoore (Pyrogar)]

Sylvanas did what she did for her city and for the Horde. Baine did what he did because looking at Jaina makes him feel guilty, nothing about what he did was for his faction. Also, like, what do you think, how much time did Sylvanas have to think about the decision and the consequences? Seconds? Mere minutes? She had to make a strategic decision for the benefit of the entire army, the Forsaken, and the Blood Elves.

I already said I agree with you on this point, and I get it, the heat of the moment, there was very little time to consider the downsides to it.

But that doesn’t mean that she isn’t still accountable for the the lives she “had” to take in order to accomplish her goal. She still killed those soldiers regardless, and not everyone is going to be happy with that whether it would have won the battle or not. It’s still killing her own soldiers, and that’s innevitably going to be problematic for people who may have known those who were blighted.

Heck, I’ll even be the first to say it, but that was ACTUALLY a morally grey decision, believe it or not.(as next to non-existant as it has been with Sylv) Sure it was successful for a time in driving back the Alliance, it got the results she desired, but not without compromising the lives of some of her soldiers in the process, not without doing something reprehensible as well. My point is, it’s still grey, it’s not completely white, good, action that simply saved the Horde, there’s still some black mixed in tinting it. I just refuse to believe that people actually will sit there and plead it as not guilty.

Even in RL friendly fire is, unfourtunately, very much a thing, but doesn’t come without consequences. Officers can and will still be held accountable for their deaths by family, friends, and other loved ones, some even go as far as to sue them in court or can even have them dishonorably discharged.

And while Baine’s actions in real life would be still considered treasonous, it wasn’t without being a deliberate choice. He wasn’t thinking about his faction, he was thinking about what was simply the right thing to do. He didn’t think about being caught, because he didn’t think the adventurer would rat him out, cuz the adventurer is pretty everyones’ best friend.

Look, point is, no amount of reasoning can make Sylvanas COMPLETELY guiltless or killing her own troops. The only way that would even be possible is if it wasn’t even her who ordered it or if it was someone disguised as her ordering it. But she’s still accountable for those deaths whether it was intentional or not.

Surely you can understand where I’m coming from, I’m not being too unreasonable am I?

You’d honestly have a better argument bringing up the DC (but please don’t some of us are still trying to wipe the memory of BtS from our brains).

I like you and I don’t feel like arguing all day, so no, I don’t think I will be bringing it up. Another day perhaps.

If this is the case, why are the vast majority of your points in this post talking about Sylvanas getting a pass on things she did to the Alliance?

Because that’s the only factor that apparently vindicates Sylvanas in this debacle. If It was against any other foe, like the scourge at Wrathgate, even though she didn’t intend for Putress to kill Alliance and Horde forces with his attack, she’s still accountable for him and the incident as well as the lives lost since it was still her people who were out of line. Which I would be using as the base for my argument if it wasn’t over 10y ago and completely thrown under the rug for this expansion or Legion for that matter.

This is such a odd hill to try and die on when there’s so, so much more that you can very easily blame Sylvanas for.

Lok’tar Ogar, mate, Victory or Death. If I die, it will either be in shame and utter failure or gloriously and with “muh Oner”

[Mediarama-rivendare (Mediarama)]

Sylvanas killing Horde soldiers was necessary to ensure a Horde victory.

Baine killing Horde Soldiers was necessary for him to aid the Alliance.

This really shouldn’t be so difficult to accept. One action comes with the territory of being a leader, the other is a act of treason.

[Drahliana-earthen-ring (Drahliana)]

There’s a major problem with the formatting in this question.

It involves a presumption that both actors were “okay” with what they did. I sincerely doubt that Baine enjoyed the idea of attacking his fellow Horde, and evil as she is, I do not believe that Sylvannas enjoyed the murder of her own troops.

It would be silly in the extreme though to presume that either had a choice in the matter. If Baine was going to rescue Derek, that meant that blood (or ichor) was going to be spilled. Similarly Sylvannas had an option to break Anduin’s troops. She was not going to complete her plan without doing so.

[Pyrogar-proudmoore (Pyrogar)]

Baine killing Horde Soldiers was necessary for him to aid the Alliance.

No, no it wasn’t. In Baine’s mind he wanted to do the RIGHT THING, according to his moral compass.

Whether it was or wasn’t is questionable, but aiding the Alliance was NOT his intention or goal.

One action comes with the territory of being a leader

It doesn’t matter if she’s leader, killing your own people is WRONG, end of story. Whether it ended up benefitting the Horde in the end or not, doesn’t change the fact that it’s still a reprehensible act. Whether it’s in defiance of the Alliance is irrelevant, killing your own soldiers will always be wrong.

[Varicella-barthilas]

It doesn’t matter if she’s leader, killing your own people is WRONG, end of story.

I euthanized my dog. I’ve had family members medically ‘pain managed’ to death. I permitted these things to happen. Those were my people, my family or as close as family. Was I wrong? Some people think so, but it’s far from an objective moral truth. Plenty of people think I was right to do so.

You can say ‘That’s different and you know it’, but that’s the point. You are stating something as an absolute truth when it is anything but.

You’re basically telling us you’ve solved the trolley problem finally, once and for all, and we are just supposed to shut up and accept your fiat on this. Just because you put your personal conclusion in CAPS doesn’t mean it is more right. All of us have brains - we can see the nuance here.

Here’s a more nuanced perspective; Sylvanas actions deserve assessment. Nobody can kill others and go beyond question. So we need to either condemn or acquit her, but neither is automatic (again, philosophers have been arguing over this for centuries and you aren’t magically clever enough to settle this by insisting really hard). Sylvanas pre-planned actions caught troops who were out of position, and a relatively minor amount of them compared to the whole. In return, she all but won the battle barring an unforseeable deus ex machina moment. How many lives were saved? How much Horde territory was defended?

You can’t just declare it’s always wrong without making a case for why. It might seem bleedingly obvious to you, but if you can’t articulate that as a moral position then you need to accept that you are voicing an instinct or opinion, not a fact.

For my part? I’ve always been a fan of pulling the lever, in trolley problems. Five families grieving is worse than one. You talk of those who will judge Sylvanas for her actions. How many, alive because of her swift and decisive action, would thank her? In the context of this one decision, I find it laughable to suggest this is some objective wrong.

[Pyrogar-proudmoore (Pyrogar)]

I euthanized my dog. I’ve had family members medically ‘pain managed’ to death. I permitted these things to happen. Those were my people, my family or as close as family. Was I wrong? Some people think so, but it’s far from an objective moral truth. Plenty of people think I was right to do so.

Ok, 1. TMI, though sorry for your losses, and 2. Not relative to the topic at hand. You don’t “lead” your family, you don’t direct them in their daily lives, a household is not a monarchy. And even if your story was comparable, then why is Baine wrong according to your logic? Some people think it was wrong, but there are also some who thought that it was the right thing to do, according to more than half the leadership in the aftermath of his arrest.

[Mediarama-rivendare (Mediarama)]

No, no it wasn’t. In Baine’s mind he wanted to do the RIGHT THING, according to his moral compass.

Whether it was or wasn’t is questionable, but aiding the Alliance was NOT his intention or goal.

It doesn’t matter if she’s leader, killing your own people is WRONG, end of story. Whether it ended up benefitting the Horde in the end or not, doesn’t change the fact that it’s still a reprehensible act. Whether it’s in defiance of the Alliance is irrelevant, killing your own soldiers will always be wrong.

I disagree. If Baine’s intention or goal wasn’t to aid the Alliance, then he shouldn’t have sent Derek back on a boat to the Alliance. He should have killed Derek on the spot and accepted the consequences of his actions.

You’re trying to somehow compare Baine’s deliberate killing of Horde soldiers to no ones benefit but the Alliance to Sylvanas’ actions of a military strike against the Alliance that had unfortunate friendly casualties due to soldiers that openly admit they were out of position.

They are in no way comparable.

[Pyrogar-proudmoore (Pyrogar)]

I disagree. If Baine’s intention or goal wasn’t to aid the Alliance, then he shouldn’t have sent Derek back on a boat to the Alliance. He should have killed Derek on the spot and accepted the consequences of his actions.

Whether he killed Derek or not is irrelevant, Derek is not a military asset to the alliance in any way. He is a disoriented, scared, and confused man still coping with his condition, he is in no way, shape, or form of use in the war.

You’re trying to somehow compare Baine’s deliberate killing of Horde soldiers to no ones benefit but the Alliance to Sylvanas’ actions of a military strike against the Alliance that had unfortunate friendly casualties due to soldiers that openly admit they were out of position.

I’m not getting into it with anyone over the dam soldiers again. I’ve already had a long argument in this thread with Yersanyia over it, and I’m not repeating myself.

They are in no way comparable.

Yes they are. Killing Horde soldiers is killing Horde soldiers. Sylvanas has gotten hundreds, if not thousands, of Horde soldiers killed in her career than, yet no one seems to mention it. Meanwhile, Baine kills a few guys, and everyones’ making a big stink over it. You can’t deny the facts, If Sylvanas’s actions costs more Horde lives than Baines’, regardless of circumstance, it’s most certainly comparable.

[Drahliana-earthen-ring (Drahliana)]

I euthanized my dog.

I had one of my cats euthanised and I held her in my arms as she passed. The experience left me in tears for the rest of the day, but I had to shrug t hem off when I went to my phone work.

[Varicella-barthilas]

Not relative to the topic at hand. You don’t “lead” your family, you don’t direct them in their daily lives, a household is not a monarchy. And even if your story was comparable, then why is Baine wrong according to your logic? Some people think it was wrong, but there are also some who thought that it was the right thing to do, according to more than half the leadership in the aftermath of his arrest.

I was the person responsible. Medical authority is not some abstract concept, it is a legal permission. It is entirely relevant. You can’t just arbitrarily discard examples - you would be entirely right to question if I was right or wrong, even though I feel strongly about which is the right answer.

Sylvanas had responsibility for her soldiers as their supreme commander. She made a judgement that got them killed because she thought it was for the best. You can’t just flatly declare that ‘WRONG’ in every case, because we can clearly see where her refusal to do so would have caused more harm, suffering and loss.

Would you flatly declare her ‘WRONG’ if she had allowed the battle to falter and all the forces there to die out of some sudden bout of hesitation? Sylvanas made the best call. The right call. If you can’t even articulate the moral precepts that you’re basing your judgement on, how can you hold Sylvanas to that standard?

But, moving on;

And even if your story was comparable, then why is Baine wrong according to your logic? Some people think it was wrong, but there are also some who thought that it was the right thing to do, according to more than half the leadership in the aftermath of his arrest.

Again, go back to the same criteria I am using to assess Sylvanas’ actions. Baine was not a supreme commander who made a tough call on his soldiers’ lives, he has no right nor responsibility for the lives he ended. He was not acting in the defense of anyone but his own personal affront, and some abstract concept of honor and ‘being true to his nature’. Those sailors were not at risk of death anyway had he not acted. He was not making a hard choice between them dying at his hand or at the hand of the enemy, he is the only agent responsible for their deaths.

He is not the man at the lever, deciding which track the trolley should have careened down. He is the one who tied them to the tracks. There is no equivocation between Baine’s self-righteous murder and Sylvanas’ judgement call as a commander in a war against a hostile force.

If Sylvanas had not acted, everyone in Undercity may well have died on Alliance blades. If Baine had not acted, his victims would still be (un)alive and well.

Baine, when charitably interpreted, believes he was acting to save the Horde, but… what has he achieved? He potentially saved enemy commanders, and spared a single unjustly treated prisoner. To what, ease his conscience? By what right, what actual entitlement, did he make the call that their lives mattered less than his sense of propriety? None.

I had one of my cats euthanised and I held her in my arms as she passed. The experience left me in tears for the rest of the day, but I had to shrug t hem off when I went to my phone work.

I feel for you. It’s a brutally hard thing to decide. And I’ve always found it cruel how little allowance there is for the grief that comes from a lost pet. Like, they are a friend who has shown you love and affection for years and now they’re gone… and people want you to function inside of a day of that? Madness.

[Syiax-azralon]

(sorry for the delay, busy days at college)

I do understand star wars more than i do in wow and well i’m into warcraft since my 7, almost 18 years reading,playing and stuff…

kalus does not equal to Baine for a simple fact
warchief= Palpatine
Nathanos = Vader ( no political power, but acts like the leader of the marines and has the most powerful fleet until endor)
Moffs = the racials leaders, cuz each moff governs and act like the leader of a system or colective of sistems, just like the racials leader act and speak for the major races that are under the banner of the horde.

Baine would be like Tarkin betraying the Emperor( which in legends he would have done with the DS), he was someone with more knowledge than most ppl but still most secrets were kept from him, such as the dark side of the force or in wow cases, sylvanas true motives for Derek proudmoore .

Vader’s betrayals has nothing to do with doing the right or wrong thing, or justice, it was because Luke was his son, the last memory of Padmé, and that was the way of the sith, Vader always had in his mind that if the opportunity appears he would have killed Palpatine in a heart beat. two different situations and not comparable.

[Liuv-moon-guard (Liuv)]

Baine, when charitably interpreted, believes he was acting to save the Horde, but… what has he achieved? He potentially saved enemy commanders, and spared a single unjustly treated prisoner. To what, ease his conscience ?

To prevent the Horde from doing something that would damage a vital piece of itself. Call it the Hordes honor, it’s integrity, its values, its “soul” if you want to get flowery about. While Sylvanas indulges in her pragmatism to the harm of everyone around her Baine did the same with his “sense of propriety”. Both acting it ways they felt necessary to protect some “greater good” and using that to justify the harm doing so caused to others.

Which Derek really shouldn’t be the pivot point. That should’ve been Teldrassil but we’re months and many a thread past that point. Like… it’s poorly done but it’s not actually a hard concept to grasp. It’s the same idea of smacking a lighter out of toddlers hands. No one really benefits in the scenario, the kids freaked out, you briefly look like a jerk and someones lighter got ruined. But a bad thing was stopped and sometimes that’s enough.

[Varicella-barthilas]

That should’ve been Teldrassil but we’re months and many a thread past that point. Like… it’s poorly done but it’s not actually a hard concept to grasp. It’s the same idea of smacking a lighter out of toddlers hands. No one really benefits in the scenario, the kids freaked out, you briefly look like a jerk and someones lighter got ruined. But a bad thing was stopped and sometimes that’s enough.

No, see, I get that sentiment.

But he didn’t make a child cry.

He took (un)living, loyal soldiers of his own faction and he dooking murdered them with his own goddook hands. Slap a toddler’s hands to save them from a burn and you can laugh it off, but here that metaphor utterly fails to compare to what Baine actually did.

I refuse to accept that the leader of all the Mulgore Tauren couldn’t put together a plan that didn’t involve killing Horde troops. He certainly had access to the personnel. And honestly, I don’t think he even cared about the people he killed. On the ship, standing within meters of their corpses, he waxes lyrical about the worth of life and the fact that the Horde can’t lose itself in pursuit of its goals. Do you think Jaina can see the dead Rangers from where she’s standing, crushed and pulped by her Old Friend Baine?

[Carmageddon-hyjal (Carmageddon)]

And Baine is doing this for Jaina, who just murdered Rastakhan.

It makes no sense. This whole expansion just makes everyone on the Horde look like idiots.

And the players get to be their henchmen.

This is why the NPCs and their story should be in the BACKGROUND, not the FOREGROUND of WoW storytelling. They should be part of the setting. Our characters should not be reduced to being, in effect, cameras for Blizzard to deliver cutscenes about the NPCs.

[Liuv-moon-guard (Liuv)]

I refuse to accept that the leader of all the Mulgore Tauren couldn’t put together a plan that didn’t involve killing Horde troops.

Maybe? We’re operating in a weird space where we’ve got quests that can now flow directly into each other despite the fact that (I think?) at some point they were time gated. How much time was there between Derek being revived and him getting put on that ship? How long was the brainwashing supposed to take? How long would it have taken Baine to get the resources for another plan into place? Presumably while taking precautions to make sure his actions weren’t noticed and blocked? Would others even take the risk of moving against Sylvanas?

I mean you can believe that there would’ve been another way if Baine had cared enough to find it. But that’s just your opinion. And while Baine has a lot of faults I wouldn’t say not caring is one of them.

And Baine is doing this for Jaina , who just murdered Rastakhan.

He’s doing it to protect the Hordes honour. That Jaina also benefits is a cost of doing that business that he’s comfortable with, or at least can live with. Like the deaths of hundreds of Horde soldiers was a price Sylvanas was willing to live with for the sake of her goals.

[Pyrogar-proudmoore (Pyrogar)]

And Baine is doing this for Jaina , who just murdered Rastakhan.

Ok, i understand that, but why does that matter? Like, i just don’t see your point, Baine barely even knew Rastakhan while he knew Jaina personally, he owed nothing to Rasta but he certainly owed it to Jaina to not let her undead brother be used as a weapon against her and her family, both for his concieved notion honor within the Horde as well as their personal friendship.

[Carmageddon-hyjal (Carmageddon)]

Ok, i understand that, but why does that matter? Like, i just don’t see your point, Baine barely even knew Rastakhan while he knew Jaina personally…

It matters because Baine is a leader of the Horde, who have just been engaged in trying to recruit the Zandalari, an effort led by…Baine. He has just attended Rastkhan’s funeral, and seen the ascension of R’s grieving daughter.

How does Talanji react when she learns that Baine has just attacked and murdered Horde troops in order to do a favour for his personal friend, the woman Talanji holds responsible for the death of her father? How would you react?

His actions also put the PC in the really odd position of fighting and attempting to kill Jaina during the raid, and then killing Horde troops for Jaina right afterwards.

It is bizarre, illogical storytelling.

Edit: I’m going to build on this. The only way this doesn’t seem bizarre is if you adopt the position that the Alliance are the real heroes of the story, so any time Horde players do something that is effectively for the Alliance, it just makes sense. I think that Blizzard’s writing team truly, deeply, see the Alliance as the heroes of the story, so much that they completely overlook the cognitive dissonance this continually creates for Horde players.

[Blitzle-azralon (Blitzle)]

The problem with Sylvanas fans is that they cannot agree that her actions warrant consequence.

There is only one problem. I’m not a fanboy of Sylvanas. Baine just sucks.

[Allerion-goldrinn]

For the same reason Sylvanas kill Forsaken left and right in Arathi even making Nathanos question her with no consequences:

Baine don’t have a legion of edgelord fans behind him to kiss the very soil he puts his hooves on. Also, he’s a giant bull-man, so too niche for the +18 content that fuels Sylvanas’ fandom.

[Ronzonai-area-52]

Okay. What’s your issue with Saurfang then?

(Lemme guess, he didn’t act soon enough for your liking. People are not allowed to change their minds EVER. If they didn’t speak their peace now, they have to forever hold it. Right? )

What’s your issue with Horde players who don’t want to follow that maniacal zombie in her quest to threaten the survival of the Horde?