The Alliance just slaughtered a ton of civilians in Zuldazar when they invaded it. They murdered Baine’s allies, members of the Horde (not just Forsaken or Zandalari), that were defending the city. They also killed the king of the Zandalari. And you’re saying Baine has an ethical problem with Derek being used a weapon against these very people? Sounds to me like a loyalty problem.
And it’s very hypocritical of Baine to give less value to the lives of those that disagree with his views. I don’t see how he’s any different from Sylvanas.
Alternative topic title: “Why is Sylvanas’ soldiers okay with killing Baine to brainwash Derek?”
Alternative version of your reply within: "OP, haven’t you been paying attention this expansion?
The Horde are the bad guys. Killing the bad guys is what good guys do. Sylvanas doesn’t need justification for killing Horde soldiers."
The issue is you are intrinsically binding Sylvanas and her actions to what it is to be Horde. Which, if that’s what you value and want out of our faction, that’s fine. But Baine is no less the Horde for wanting peace, free will, respect for life, and reverence for the Earth Mother. The Forsaken trying to kill Baine is the Forsaken attacking the Horde in every sense that him fighting them to the death is him attacking the Horde.
The alliance did attack however they are at war civilians did die and that’s terrible but that’s not uncommon in a war at all. Baine acted to prevent an atrocity no one is saying a raid is off the table or infiltration and assassination but she raised a man who died in a war that happened decades ago taking away the peace of death to brainwash and torture him to the point of killing the very people he died to defend in their sleep playing on their trust and pity of a loved one. That’s a very big ethical problem considering the horde has a lot more options. Also how are we quantifying the value of life here? Because we have killed a whole lot of alliance during this war is it because we value their lives less or we accept that the premise that we have two competing interests that can’t be settled diplomatically? War or in this case is the continuation of policy through force when diplomatic means have failed. Baine couldn’t board that ship and ask them to release derek without conflict so he engaged the defenders of that ship giving quarter to those who fled and only killing those that stood their ground a pretty fair deal considering windrunner would have killed them and raised them into undeath whether they surrendered or not.
Your reply is all over the place. How am I “intrinsically binding Sylvanas and her actions to what it is to be Horde”? Please enlighten me.
I’ve never disregarded Baine’s ideologies. I know he’s been crying about the war since the very start. However, one minute he’s fighting next to Sylvanas committing what you people call atrocities and the next he’s lecturing us on “muh honour.” Then he goes out of his way to betray the Horde in order to help the Alliance, and he’s willing to kill Horde soldiers to do it? That’s not honourable. Loyalty is one aspect of honour and he lacks it.
I doubt you’ve done the scenario if you really believe that the Horde guards on that ship were put there to kill Baine. The guards were guarding Derek, Baine breaks in with the player character, attacks the guards and kills some of them, frees Derek and steals the ship. I don’t know which version of the scenario you were playing but no, the Forsaken are not there trying to kill Baine lmao.
Back to Baine’s beliefs. Yes, his respect for life is super and he wants peace above all which is also pretty super. However, the Horde was never just about “honour.” There are way too many anti-Sylvanas idiots on these forums that expect her to be Thrall or Cairne or Vol’jin, but they fail to realize that the Horde has always been an amalgamation of ideologies and morals. Sylvanas has her own set of values and beliefs, which have been part of the Horde since the very beginning whether you like it or not. This means the Horde never stood solely for what Baine claims it does. This is his version of the Horde, and he’s willing to kill his own comrades to achieve that version which makes him no different than Sylvanas.
If you’ve been following the Warcraft story since the very beginning then Sylvanas raising Derek should not come as a shock. This is the real Sylvanas and she’s at war. She has always been calculating and cold. The authors need to tone it down on her Saturday morning villain persona this expansion, but her actions aren’t out of character.
And talking about “peace,” I believe Sylvanas also claims she wants peace. Garrosh wanted peace as well through conquest. Thrall did too and he actually tried but failed.
This topic though is about Baine and the new scenario in which he kills Horde guards to help the Alliance.
Because in his mind an Alliance life is always worth more than any number of Horde lives. We’ve seen this several times like back in Theramoore when he put the entire Horde army at risk by telling Jaina about the attack.
God I can’t believe so many people ate up that bs about Baine caring about Forsaken free will or really even the Horde. That entire cut scene was just another schmaltzy Christie Golden special in which the big scary cow is over-humanized to appeal to the same people that love Jaina and Anduin. Baine is not and never has been written for Horde players. He’s just a prop for Princess Jaina.
It’s not like they are Humans, they are just Horde. Baine has shown many times in the past he’ll sacrifice anything to save Humans, including as many Horde lives as it takes.
It’s like his only character trait except lying around doing nothing while whining about honor.
Y’know what, kudos to you for being the first to refer to them as what they are, just Forsaken soldiers and not playing it up like some tradgedy by reffering to them as “Loyal Horde Soldiers”.
I know thinking is hard for you, so I’ll just break it down.
The Forsaken are a part of the Horde.
Their soldiers take orders from the chain of command within the Horde.
Therefore, Forsaken soldiers are Horde soldiers. Intention has nothing to do with it. What you’re basically saying is equivalent to me saying that certain groups of people in America aren’t Americans just because I disagree with them on something.
In case you’re still having trouble thinking this over, I will provide a link to the first video on a subject about critical thinking appropriate to what seems to be your intellectual level.
So I’m not sure if I’m remembering this correctly or not (I’ve only done the questline once) but, I chose to side with Baine and most of the Forsaken on the ship kind of cower and run away. Its mostly the Dark Rangers and named mobs are the only ones killed.
I think that makes sense he’d kill loyalists, but not the regular soldiers who begged for their life? Baine is a bit naive so him letting go someone like that who is in turn a true loyalist makes sense.
I wouldnt say hes a moron. He doesnt see a need to kill them. He probably knew she’d find out anyway and if he had killed them all it would have gone against who he is as a character. And the OP originally mentioned him killing all/most aboard so this shows he didnt.
I’m not saying dont hate him cause I get where people are coming from. I personally prefer how Lor’themar has done things: “Imma just wait and see”
And I know non partisan discussion is hard for you so I’ll make my reprisal brief, cuz I’ll likely be wasting my breath here.(or keyboard, whatever.)
I did not say they were not members of the Horde, I said they should not be referred to as “Horde troops”, it’s politically inaccurate. The correct way to refer to them is as “Forsaken troops” because that’s all they are, Forsaken troops. There was not a single other Horde race on that ship in which the collective term “Horde” should be used to describe them.
If there was a single member of another race, then you would refer to them all as horde soldiers, because then they become a collective unit, the Horde.
Yikes this is absurd. Last I checked the Forsaken were part of the Horde? I mean they are members of the Horde. Therefore, they are considered Horde troops regardless of who is not on that ship.
It’s like saying Thunderbluff doesn’t have any Horde troops, only Taurens. See how stupid that sounds?
It seems you people don’t understand how organizations work. You don’t refer to a member group within the organization as the organization unless it’s an inclusive unit with members of other groups from the same organization. You refer to them simply as the name of their group, since they’re representing only part of the organization. You refer to a Forsaken-exclusive group as Forsaken, and you refer to a Forsaken/Blood elf group as a Horde group as there are two groups from the greater organization working together.
It’s just the politically acurate way to label them, and it makes a big difference.
Except no one would say that because there ARE other races within Thunder Bluff such as the Forsaken in the Pools of vision as well as other races spread throughout the city.