To be fair, in that particular example it’s questionable whether the Horde would even conclude that a collapsed mine full of exploded dead goblins was actually the Alliance’s doing. They are goblins, after all.
I was actually referring to the killing of miners to get samples of azurite.
The other miners I remember being killed was where an NPC sends you on a quest to kill Goblins because one was involved in the death of his son in the war. I don’t know the details because I wasn’t willing to do a quest where I commit revenge based racist murder.
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Yes, I am aware of who Twinbraid is and that is why I said he ultimately ended up dead. At least, assuming the legendary cloak quest is canonical.
I guess I must have been imagining this little interaction:
Magister Hathorel: Indeed she did, traitor. You and Lady Proudmoore.
Jaina: I have no quarrel with you.
Magister Hathorel: Have you forgotten the purge of Dalaran, murderer? Today, the Sunreavers will be avenged.
Jaina: Then your vendetta is with me, and me alone!
Magister Hathorel: No! You will watch your friends die–just as I did!
Magister Hathorel: Rangers! Kill them all! FOR THE SUNREAVERS!
Jaina tried to do the right thing, was quickly rebuffed. Also, ultimately the Horde have more to account for that the Alliance.
Because this entire mess can be traced back to him and putting Garrosh on the throne! The fourth war followed Garrosh plans to a tee! If Theramore was never destroyed the Alliance would have been able to quickly help Teldrassil. If you ever read Tide of War, Slyvanas knew exact what would happen and that Undercity would be the first target.
Considering Before the Storm happened before/nearly the same time that quest occured, I would point out Gallawix was attacking Alliance prospectors at the same time, if not earlier.
Yes, Blizzard has a character being presented as a villain bring up Dalaran. Clearly nobody who is good and moral would bring it up.
This is another example of how Blizzard handles outrages done to the Horde.
And, of course, Blizzard makes no mention of the irony of Jaina proclaiming that their grievances with her give them no right to punish others who were not involve… When that is exactly what she did in Dalaran.
Well, you claim about Theramore allowing Teldrasil is, IMO, dubious. And, of course, the reason it follow Garrosh 1.0 to a tee, is that Blizzard could be expected to come up with the plan another than Garrosh 2.0, “the same villain bat, but harder”
Yes, you have the issue of the Horde apologizing for Theramore but when it comes to Dalaran (and note, more civilians died in a Dalaran than Theramore) its all “Purge? What Purge?”.
Aside from the fact this isn’t true. (The expedition was sent after Magni told them what Azerite was, the killing of miner occurred in order to get samples to find out what it was). The killing of civilian miners so you can loot their bodies is still murder, regardless of wha the status of the conflict was.
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During the before the Storm prologue we have two golbins talking and discussing about “eliminating the competation.” Said prologue happened before Anduin gave his speech. I’d point we have been killing civilians miners/pesants/peons since Warcraft 1. It is the nature of the faction war.
Because at that point, most of the people involved had moved on. I’d also point out the whole purge was caused by the Horde player/Sunreaver stealing the Divine Bell. Hell, even Vol’jin himself said he didnt fault Jaina for what happened.
You can get the apology as soon as the Horde apologies for betraying Dalaran, stealing the Divine Bell and causing the entire thing in the first place.
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You’re wasting your time, Elathaah.
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That is not the case, as per Chronicles she wasnt even interested in conquest and it was the trolls initiating conflicts.
I know. The text states she wasn’t interested in conquest, even though the text also states that her forces went into other lands and built temples and cities and devastated their foes in battle. And the map shows the original Dark Troll/Night Elf territory expanding to cover more and more of the continent, including troll held lands.
Blizzard really goes out of its way to try and make players feel better about humans/elves engaging in genocide/displacement by either refusing to acknowledge it, downplaying it, or suggesting the primitive savages actually deserved it.
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The last quest we see General Twinbraid in is A Change of Command where Wrathion has the Horde kill him.
Jaina and Anduin then went on to betray Baine soon afterwards by attacking the Tauren when they knew they were weak.
Yes, in Pandaria.
But I was talking about in Cata, which was the basis for Wrathion getting the Horde and the Alliance to kill each other’s commanders (real piece of work he was.)
Here is the thing, there were plenty of land not held by anyone at the time. For all we know those temples/cities were build in said land and they only decided to take Troll lands once they started attacking.
The same could easily be said of the Horde races. The orcs themselves, while not causing the genocide of the gronns, benefited heavily from their deaths. Then after the ogres decided to attack the Throne of the Elements, the orcs ultimately beat them and once they were defeated took lands from the ogres.(notwithstanding the ogres probably deserved to lose their land)
I’d also point out with the blood elves/nightborne being part of the Horde, claiming it is only the Alliance that managed to benefit is hypocritical.
They didnt attack them because they were weak. They attacked them because they were supporting Garrosh at the time who was attacking their allies.
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ITT: Zerde compares the fully sapient race of Trolls to Gronn as a means to say genocide of trolls is okay.
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Which is what Zerde was saying with ‘the dad of the guy running Bael Modan was also killed’. The son was killed in reference to ‘everyone in Bael Modan ended up dead’.
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I could have worded that better but was too lazy to find his name at the time. Honestly, it feels like I spent more energy clarifying this than it would have taken to just look up his name.
Ah so its ok for the Horde to kill off a race/benefit from its falls if they think said race is below them/savages but not the Alliance huh? Yeah, that is a really great defense.
But he was still wrong to which I was correcting him. Marley Twinbraid wasn’t the one running Bael Modan. He was just a scout.
Prospector Khazgorm was the one running it. General Twinbraid was just the leader of the Ironforge detachment there to safeguard Ironforge’s interests, and was likely the one who gave the order to open fire on the Stonespire.
So, Khaszgorm and Twinbraid were the leaders.
I wasn’t trying to argue. Was just correcting his mistake.
That is OK, if you are willing to admit that both sides do evil things. Which still raises the questions about why it is Horde actions that are ever developed further. And doesn’t do much for the Alliance “good”, Horde “evil” narrative.
OTOH, if you want to say that the Alliance doesn’t commit atrocities, the murder of civilians is an atrocity.
Note, the killing of the miners is explicitly done to get samples of the unknown substance. The expedition is decided on after Magni tells the Alliance what Azerite is. It has to have occured before.
You are right, in that the Purge happened and Blizzard has decided to forget about it. While Theramore keeps getting brought up. This is exactly what I’m talking about.
And yes, Blizzard had Voljin write a letter to let them off the hook. Meanwhile, Theramore keeps getting trotted out.
Yes, because the Horde must apologize for thefts before the Alliance can be expected to apologize for killings.
But the worst part is that it isn’t even just that one side is apologizing is getting white washed. On top of that Blizzard is expecting Horde players to accept Jaina as friend.
(And if you want to trot out some meme where the civilians in Dalaran deserved to be killed or something, we have heard it all before.)
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We can look at the maps and see that the land where much Kal’dorei empire sat was once land settled by trolls. And it didn’t start that way.
I didn’t say Horde/Alliance. I said Humans/Elves.
Similarly, the Blood Elf extermination and settling of Amani lands is similarly glossed over and receives much of the same justifications as the Night Elf/Zandalari stuff.
It’s really all a matter of who does the killing and who the victim is.
Indeed, the wiping out of the Gronn and the Ogres by the Orcs is not portrayed as a way that engenders any kind of sympathy for the Orcs, the Gronn or the Ogres. It’s all framed as kill or be killed. A bunch of savage people on a savage world killing each other. But when the Orcs kill the Draenei? Well now it’s a framed as a tragedy that is repeatedly brought up as one of the Horde’s original sins. Because Draenei are pretty and civilized and had no choice and were the victims of a tribal and savage peoples.
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Anduin literally mentions the two worse names in Alliance history, Arthas and Daelin. The fact both sides can do evil things was never in question, it was more that Horde did more of those evils things and until recently have never done anything to actually make up for it.
As an example, even if one can consider Daelin evil for restarting the war, Jaina let him die and the Alliance actually didnt help Kul Tiras pursue any retaliatory war. Where as the same can hardly ever be said of the Horde.
It wouldnt be unknown at the time if said goblins didnt kill “the competition” earlier.
I would say it more of the nature of Warcraft’s war. Civilians that actually participate in supporting the war(builders, miners, cooks etc) are considered valid targets by both sides.
Theramore keeps getting brought up because a major character’s defining event was tied to that event. The same cant be said for any of the remaining major Horde characters.
When said theft was of a weapon of mass destruction which had it been used properly would have ended up killing thousands of Alliance life and starting the chain of event that ultimately led to the purge, yes they should.
The question here is who struck first? If the trolls attacked the budding night elf empire first and because they underestimate them and ultimately lost ground they I would say it would be a justified expansionism.
It is framed as a tragedy because unlike the rest of gronns/ogres they never started a war with orcs. Hell, even when the orcs(pre-demon blood/Kil’jaeden) started raiding their towns and ENSLAVING DRAENEI, Velen tried to avoid confict and focused on saving the captured victims.
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No, the question is not who struck first. Because if it were, then everything done to Night Elves by the Orcs who landed in Warcraft 3 would be justified. Anything the Forsaken free of the Lich King’s control do to the Alliance would be justified. Anything done by Sylvanas to the Alliance after being attacked by Genn in Stormheim following the peace agreement would be okay. Anything the Bilgewater Cartel does to the Alliance would be justified because the Alliance ship ship fired on them first in Cataclysm. But Blizzard doesn’t frame it that way. Because Humans/Elves.
Who Blizzard frames as good/bad when it comes to slaughtering/displacing one group by another in WoW has nothing to do with “who shot first”. It has everything to do with who the writers decide they want to frame as the good guys and the bad guys.
“They struck first” is often used an excuse used to justify violence against people the narrative has already decided should be exterminated without the designated good guys (or audience) feeling too bad. Except when the “good” guys shoot first or their target are the “bad” guys, then it isn’t.
There’s no better illustration of this than in the history between the Kul Tirans and the Drust, where Humans came to the Drusts’ lands, and the fact that the Drust attacked them is used as justification by the Humans to drive the Drust to extinction and settle all of Kul Tiras. But the writers decided ahead of time that the Humans would the good guys and the Drust would be bad.
Gronn/Ogres killing/enslaving Orcs and vice versa isn’t framed at all like Orcs killing/enslaving Draenei.
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