I miss being ccing some troops and doing strategy rather than just grind
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it’s not solely about the timer. most people complaining about the timer aren’t going to complete a +20 whether the timer is 15 minutes or 15 days
You can make that claim about all dungeons, perhaps but it is not relevant to M+ purely.
Trash is just as important as any boss, and in many ways will be significantly harder for many groups.
The bigger picture? If you’re saying getting to +25’s is the reward, then I personally would be perfectly fine with removing all gearing incentives from it so I can finally wash my hands completely of M+
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You would love season 1 of Shadowlands then!
Lining up prideful and cds is a HUGE strategy element that the best groups in the world will painstakingly theorycraft.
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I too would wish they would remove tangential rewards so they don’t confuse players into doing content they don’t align with for sure.
But sadly, Blizzard loves these carrot on a stick designs.
Just realize what is actually happening.
They put gear in there to get you interested and hope the concept overall will get you hooked.
If it doesn’t, you have some things to think about.
the ultimate problem isn’t the timer, it’s the reluctance of a lot of players to admit that there are challenges they simply can’t handle.
if the timer were gone tomorrow, most of the same people would be right back here complaining that m+ would be perfect if there just weren’t any one-shot mechanics, because those aren’t fair and they’re against the spirit of rpgs and blah blah blah
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… to beat the final boss you have to have beaten the trash before it so I don’t know what you are getting at.
Literally just remove the timer and you have your dungeon endgame. The most basic way to add difficulty is to increase health and damage for enemies. Mythic+ would be just fine without the timer.
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Argument is breaking down so you are throwing out hypotheticals eh? Ok.
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Mythic plus is just fine as is. You aren’t forced to play it, and you aren’t forced to use the timer. So what is complaint? That your key doesn’t upgrade for not timing? Or that you don’t want a timer? Different issues in reality, but for ones arguing I’d guess they’re the same to you all.
And I’m not. I would if the timer was removed.
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The difficulty of the dungeon could scale without a time element. Where, eventually you get to a place you can’t complete the dungeon without improvement.
Then itd be nerfed dungeon! Too hard!
Oh I understand, im just trying to work with the casuals and compromise.
how? eventually either all mobs are bullet sponges that take 20 minutes a piece to kill or mob damage is tuned so high that even melee swings will one-shot your tank. neither of those is going to be much fun.
The average player is so casual it borderline on bad. There are also people still hanging onto the idea that the only content that should matter is the outdated model of raiding
I have no problem with you being an elitist, to be clear. I just don’t like when people pretend their attitude ISN’T elitist when it very clearly is. So as long as you’re fine with being an elitist, I can just not group with you and I’m content with that. My goal in life isn’t to make everyone nice, some people will always not be nice. But I do try to make sure people are at least honest with themselves. 
Uh… I like mythic+. I never said I didn’t. I said I preferred dungeons back without the timer. But that doesn’t mean I don’t still like it now.
My perspective is pretty simple: Shadowlands dungeons are pretty mediocre on the whole, but I enjoy the scaling difficulty of M+. I am okay with the timer - it doesn’t bother me or stress me out because I’m not bothered by failure. If I fail, it means I deserved to fail. That’s fine.
I do think that people would be far less toxic if the timer weren’t there. So in THAT regard I am not happy with timers. But it’s not Blizzard’s job to correct peoples’ attitudes, so I don’t necessarily think it’s wrong for them to have the timers.
I am also not particularly happy with the idea that ‘the only way to progress is to get faster’, but you know that I am a fan of more progression paths rather than less, so that’s not a surprise.
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Simply because your too busy rushing to get the job done on time, you don’t take the time to learn to do the job correctly.
So many people skip the learning phrase of the mechanics to get their high level score so they can gear faster and hope to skip mechanics.
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In the simplest terms possible, it’s pressure, which a lot of people find unpleasant. Even in untimed runs, the clock is there ticking away goading you to go faster.
I’ve said it before but I think it’d go a long way if the keystone podium had an “untimed” checkbox to disable the clock and forfeit the extra loot from the outset. A similar checkbox in LFD would be nice too just so there’s a standard way of advertising such groups.