Back in Legion, WW monk was insanely fun and feels great to play.
Now in BFA, it’s slow, does little to no dmg and is useless af.
In my experience the removal of FoF stun hurt pvp. The slow isn’t nearly as useful.
The second issue out of ToK there’s no really survival cd.
By useless do you mean one of the top arena specs in the game?
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Mmm…I wouldn’t say we do no damage. It’s just that we’re CD dependent and said CDs are easily countered, and a lot of our support/utility was gutted. Our mobility was nerfed in Legion when Blizzard took away the ability for Roll to remove snares, and it got nerfed even further this expansion when FSK’s travel distance/time was nerfed by 25%. Loss of our artifact weapon causing a reduction in our overall energy cap as well as GCD changes have made WW feel very slow.
I have no idea why people keep saying this. Objectively speaking, from the transition from Legion → BfA, we’ve lost more than we gained.
We lost FoF Stun, Para CD tripled, port CD basically doubled, Serenity neutered, SEF passively nerfed by the removal of artifact weapons (it went from being a 50% damage boost to a 35% damage boost), Leg Sweep CD basically increased by 15 seconds, Healing Elixirs removed, BoK damage nerfed by 27%, Hit Combo neutered even more, and probably some other stuff on a long list.
What we gained in return was, CDR on FoF and RSK from BoK use, and loosened reigns on our damage because of the partial death of PvP templates because stats aren’t fixed anymore. I say partial death of PvP templates because ability templates/limiters are still in place.
So, i honestly don’t understand why people keep saying we’re one of the most viable. I’m willing to bet that most specs’ counterplay options against us have not really changed, while at the same time I know we’ve lost many of our tools and utilities.
I’m not going to say that I think WW is busted or that its the #1 melee in arena atm, HOWEVER:
You seem to misunderstand every time somebody says that we are.
The reason I say this is because every time somebody says “WW is one of the best arena specs in the game” you go on a tangent about how we’ve lost more in the transition from Legion to BFA than we’ve gained, which is accurate. However, just because a spec performs well & is considered among the community as one of the top melee specs in arena doesn’t mean that its because that spec is fun or has some sort of bloated toolkit.
People say WW is one of the best in arena atm b/c our damage surpasses other melee’s & our utility isn’t complete trash in comparison to other spec’s in arena atm.
Again, im not saying I think WW is OP, or that I think its design is fine, or that what blizzard pruned is justified, because I dont believe any of those things.
Me personally, atleast with how terrible BFA turned out, I personally think WW is one of the more balanced spec’s in the game and that underperforming spec’s should be buffed up to compensate, creating more diversity on what’s viable in the current arena meta, rather than having only 6-7 specs be viable every season.
to make it short, just because people say WW is performing very well in arena right now doesn’t mean that their saying we’re in a good spot design wise, which is how you seem to take it every time.
Toolkits should only be evaluated as relative to other classes not past expansions.
Other classes lost a lot too, and WW hits like a monster truck with relative short damage cooldowns and peels well, and is hard to pin down to kill.
I’d argue we’re on par and borderline below average in terms of damage outside of burst when compared to the other specs. And in terms of utility toolkits, as far as I’ve seen in BfA, the toolkits of other specs have remained relatively unchanged from Legion and some have even gotten better. That said, i see what you mean when people say that WW is one of the most viable melee specs for PvP. I don’t agree, but at least i can see where you’re coming from.
As far as I’ve seen, toolkits have remained relatively the same and other people have even gotten their kits improved.
Please elaborate. Because the only noticeable difference I’ve noticed this expansion in PvP are a lack of Arms Wars and Affy locks, which are both good things.
If the enemy team lets them. And even then I’ve dumped full burst cleanly into a person before and had them just shrug it off.
Yea… but SEF counters itself half the damn time, and ToD is really flashy.
Debatable. Our burst mobility may be the best in the game, but we die hard to stuns all the same. That and burst mobility runs out.
You should post this in the arena forums to give them a good chuckle and brighten their day.
You’ve yet to elaborate on what other specs have also lost.
From my alts, I know for sure Ret pally and DH have not changed at all. DH might actually be better than it was last xpac in terms of toolkit. Boomkin more or less feels the same as last xpac. Can’t speak much for feral yet, as I’ve yet to play a lot of it.
How much actuall WW PVP have you done? Or are you just parroting things you heard streamers say?
There are players who know Arena well enough and play with people that also are very good that will make WW shine. Its a tough class to play right, and is very punishing if the other team know how to counter a WW.
If you are still on the learning curve then you cant really critise someone.
Windwalker is one of 4 viable melee specs.
Everyone else might be doing alright numerically but they’re top comps are B tier or lower.
But, what makes it one of 4 viable melee specs? (also who are the other 3?)
Is it that our toolkit is specifically good against the meta or that we have more of a toolkit than other specs? Because WW has an objectively weaker toolkit this xpac, and people seem to be saying that we’re good because of how good our toolkit is in relation to other people’s.
I can’t tell if you are trolling or not. DK, Rogue, Dh are 3 other good melee to answer your stupid question. Ww has self healing, fists, ring, incap, sweep, karma, port, diffuse and wall/disarm depending on what is needed. That’s a pretty good toolkit compared to some classes right now. You must either be completely wasting your cooldowns, breaking hit combo often, keyboard turning/clicking your abilities or just have zero understanding of any kind of arena awareness to not at least think ww are in a good position. You also have good gear too so it’s not a gear issue Yangxiaolong.
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For one, that was a legitimate question. Though, I’m quite surprised warriors and ret aren’t up there. Especially considering they’re not as susceptible to roots as dk, rogue, and dh.
While this is true, some of the big ones on that list share a common trait in that they might make things better for the situation, but they in no way guarantee anything. There is no certainty.
Sure we have self heals, but there is no guarantee that it’ll keep us up. I’ve died plenty of times just waiting on the CD of Expel Harm or trying to effuse through DoTs. Sure FoF is strong against melee, but the loss of its stun really hindered our matchups by opening up counterplay and letting classes that can shrug off snares like Fury War, Druids, and Shamans run free. Sure ring is good against melee or if you want to knock someone out of position, but there is counterplay to it. If you use it defensively people can just cc you out to prevent you from getting self heals out, and it’s basically useless against DoT classes if you’re trying to peel for a friend. Karma can save your life, but there is a lot of counterplay and it doesn’t help that it’s basically a dead ability against any comp with a paladin with brain or if used against a mage. Port makes a situation better but in no way guarantees survival. We get Diffuse/Wall because Karma is our only baseline defensive and as I’ve said before, it’s basically overhyped.
This is brought up a lot, and TBH it’s another aspect i don’t understand too well mainly because i haven’t touched the other classes as much this xpac yet. But from my perspective WW’s kit got shredded, while for the most part based on my experiences in the field, it doesn’t feel like the other specs got hit as hard as we did. I know DPS shamans got hit with the moving of earthgrab to being a resto only talent, the removal of Gust of Wind, and voodoo totem getting removed from the game. However, they got comparable replacements for those losses. That said, I’m still looking into the overall changes in toolkits for the specs from Legion → BfA.
Not frequently, but we all waste CDs time to time. When it happens for me, i usually burn Karma by accident or mis-anticipate damage.
I don’t run it. It’s just more salt on the wound considering it used to be worth 3-4 times what it is right now.
Imo, I think we’re average. I guess the big debate is how much an uncertainty is worth. Sure we can swing big, but that’s usually reliant on the opponent’s response, and even then things might fall short. I still remember getting full burst cleanly into an enemy only to have them survive it. Full burst being, SEF + 390 vers trinket + Xuen + ToD + full FoF + RSK + WDP, and for the most part them not having a DR up and not getting a lot of heals.
I was under the impression Monks were in a great spot. I just came back to the game after a few months and I’m actually doing pretty well in casual PVP, which signals to me that something about Monks is strong enough to make up for my lack of experience/skill.
I’ve been hearing a lot about how Monks are big in the meta at the moment, and I’ve been seeing a lot more in BGs as people level up new Monks (i.e. people are re-rolling because of how solid the class is). You’d barely be able to tell they’re still the least played class.
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Because ww’s are now just better warriors with better utility. ww’s are a shell of themselves when compared to WoD or MoP WW when this specc was actually considered fun and good.
To fix WW there needs to be done multiple things
- Fists of Fury Stun added back
- Ring of Peace removed
- Tiger Tail Sweep baked in baseline
- Transendence CD to at least 30 seconds
- Paralysis CD to at least 25 seconds
- Healing Elixir/nimble brew brought back as talent spell or baseline whatever some kind of stun defensive
- Fortifying Brew baseline
- Disarm made baseline
- overall damage reduced by x%
- Storm, earth, and fire damage increased by x%
- some kind of cooldown reduction tool to storm,earth and, fire to match up the overall damage reduction and to bring back the core aspect of WW’s = bursting.
- Touch of Death no burst cd anymore execute at 10% again
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My score only reflects the fact i dont put a ton of effort in to finding other players i can push rating with. And most of it was playing MW casually with a Ret. Is there stuff i need to learn? Yes.
But tell me where im wrong about how WW is played? Its not just some mash button spec, blow your cds and go full throttle. You already know this because ive seen you say it before.
It sounded like you were suggesting that windwalker isnt viable because its hard and the only reason people have rating is because they play with other good players, if I misread then I apologize.
I know its viable. Im not saying in anyway that its not.