It doesn't divide the community per se! Its a tool that players use to best ensure results for their time in m+. The problem lies that in the forums and self proclaimed "casual" community, call it elitests because it usually weeds out players like them.
They want to have access to higher keys without having the experience and most time skill to completely them cleanly! All raider.io does is allow players to select the most qualified players for their keys and they hate the entire idea of putting value on players!
I'll personally never understand why they blame a tool for players behavior!
10/30/2018 04:00 PMPosted by DĂŠmonjesĂčsbads will be bads and if there is a way to cleave them from the selection pool most users will take the path of least resistance. It was gearscore in wrath & ilvl for a while now, now its Io.
Yeah pretty much this, its not the most accurate tool used by playes to exclude people from joining based on what youre actually doing in regards to dungeons, not even raiding from what I understand.
The funniest thing is the people defending it are also the ones saying not to cater to casuals. So it become a vicious cycle. Cater to the casuals because they keep being excluded. If people took the time to teach others, then it wouldnt be needed at all.
Dude, I'm not teaching you in my +10 key. GTFO with that.
1 Like
But doesn't buying runs invalidate Raider.IO?
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Because rather than fix the cause of the illness (helping bad or inexperienced people git gud), they'd rather mitigate the symptoms (develop new ways to avoid running high end content without bad or inexperienced people). And the cycle repeats again and again and again.
2 Likes
because (and I'm grossly overgeneralizing here) the people who just want to kick it and have fun in a dungeon are thrown into the same LFG pool as the people who want to prepot, flask, max their char and have an almost flawless run.
the goals of either group are not wrong, they just don't work well together.
instead of one side going "you know what, you do you, it's ok if you don't want to play with me" they are all "RArrrrrrrrwwwwwww ban raider .io because they won't play with me!"
the goals of either group are not wrong, they just don't work well together.
instead of one side going "you know what, you do you, it's ok if you don't want to play with me" they are all "RArrrrrrrrwwwwwww ban raider .io because they won't play with me!"
2 Likes
The whole issue is that some casual players (not all ofc) don't understand that M+ is not casual content, sure you can overgear lower keys and still complete them, but you can't do that on higher keys..
So when they try to get into groups doing appropriate keys for their item level (which is quite high because all the free loot and titanforging) they get declined because those groups ask for certain raider.io score that they don't have, they seem to not understand that those keys are difficult content (not catered fro casual players) that requires a group of players with experience doing that content to have a decent chance of success.
So when they try to get into groups doing appropriate keys for their item level (which is quite high because all the free loot and titanforging) they get declined because those groups ask for certain raider.io score that they don't have, they seem to not understand that those keys are difficult content (not catered fro casual players) that requires a group of players with experience doing that content to have a decent chance of success.
10/30/2018 04:59 PMPosted by Annastasithe goals of either group are not wrong, they just don't work well together.
Basically this.
It's worth pointing out that nothing about the current situation is new. Folks were using Gearscore for the same purpose back when it was the new hotness.
1 Like
I think the hate over IO isn't because of what it is, but how it's used.
People will ask for ridiculously inflated scores for beginner content, much like Gearscore when it was used. It's not uncommon to see people looking for 1000+ scores on a +2 key.
If you're running a +10 or higher, sure, it makes sense to look for people who are highly skilled and can prove it. If you're running a +2 Atal'dazar or something, it seems a lot less warranted.
The easier myth+ content is there for people to learn, and being excluded from being allowed to come because you haven't done it before creates a lot of ill will toward those using IO.
In the end, it's a tool, just like any other tool. Some people use it the way it was intended and it becomes pretty useful.
Others misuse it and then people blame the tool itself for all of their troubles, instead of those who misuse it.
People will ask for ridiculously inflated scores for beginner content, much like Gearscore when it was used. It's not uncommon to see people looking for 1000+ scores on a +2 key.
If you're running a +10 or higher, sure, it makes sense to look for people who are highly skilled and can prove it. If you're running a +2 Atal'dazar or something, it seems a lot less warranted.
The easier myth+ content is there for people to learn, and being excluded from being allowed to come because you haven't done it before creates a lot of ill will toward those using IO.
In the end, it's a tool, just like any other tool. Some people use it the way it was intended and it becomes pretty useful.
Others misuse it and then people blame the tool itself for all of their troubles, instead of those who misuse it.
2 Likes
10/30/2018 04:59 PMPosted by Annastasibecause (and I'm grossly overgeneralizing here) the people who just want to kick it and have fun in a dungeon are thrown into the same LFG pool as the people who want to prepot, flask, max their char and have an almost flawless run.
the goals of either group are not wrong, they just don't work well together.
instead of one side going "you know what, you do you, it's ok if you don't want to play with me" they are all "RArrrrrrrrwwwwwww ban raider .io because they won't play with me!"
That statement cuts both ways.
If they are going to divide it, take the IO crowd of group finder and make them form a group the old school way.
Or make a sub section of group finder.
Seems the IO crew don't mind the exclusivity of it..make it happen.
10/30/2018 05:06 PMPosted by Ralanbék10/30/2018 04:59 PMPosted by Annastasibecause (and I'm grossly overgeneralizing here) the people who just want to kick it and have fun in a dungeon are thrown into the same LFG pool as the people who want to prepot, flask, max their char and have an almost flawless run.
the goals of either group are not wrong, they just don't work well together.
instead of one side going "you know what, you do you, it's ok if you don't want to play with me" they are all "RArrrrrrrrwwwwwww ban raider .io because they won't play with me!"
That statement cuts both ways.
If they are going to divide it, take the IO crowd of group finder and make them form a group the old school way.
Or make a sub section of group finder.
Seems the IO crew don't mind the exclusivity of it..make it happen.
You are delusional.
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Nah.
I don't believe the majority of players that use IO think this way. You can't assume they all think like this.10/30/2018 04:11 PMPosted by Ralanbék"I'm pro, your poo" ...uninstall my game baddie.
And I wonder about how many Mythic+ are completed in Guild groups/Pre-mades that aren't Pugged.
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Because one side wants to get carried and receive handouts while the other believes we should work for our stuff.
1 Like
10/30/2018 04:01 PMPosted by AnorimBecause snowflakes get their feelings hurt when they're told they're not as skilled or experienced as someone else.
Well, I'm a snowflake and it doesn't bother me in the least. :)
1 Like
OP sounds like he hasn't done any Mythic+ yet, so here's the breakdown of what it is. You should be able to tell within the first couple paragraphs why people want to vet pickup members HARD, to an extent that will naturally piss people off.
M+ is a very difficult timed run with significant scaling beyond M0, extra added mechanics each week (floor hazards, spawning bombs, mobs nuke the party or buff each other when they die, etc), and you only get one attempt to advance your key. You can carry people in low keys, but even by mid level everyone has to be nearly flawless to make the timer, and significant class balance deficiencies start becoming impossible to ignore.
The timer is invariably too strict to take a safe path through the dungeon, so risky skips and patrol !@#$ery are common -- many of them use things like rogue AOE stealth and are unrepeatable if you wipe without getting a checkpoint afterward, and other bosses are fought with nearby trash still alive and ready to asspull if positioning isn't careful. The timer is also too strict to use much CC, so nearly all pulls have to be controlled live with precise stuns and interrupts while they're all cleaved down quickly. DPS have to be 100% on the ball controlling them, tanks have to blow cooldowns liberally to survive and often have to kite at a moment's notice, and healers have to have strong throughput and endurance even if everyone else avoids everything they can.
On top of that, the keystone can have affixes where the trash might buff each other or nuke the party when they die, randomly spawn bombs that have to be killed before they nuke, or even spawn additional mobs in trash. You think those 5-pulls in Freehold are fun? Wait till they're 8+ because they're so large entire packs unavoidably link. Think Waycrest is easy? Oh, now dying mobs all drop large blood pools that heal the other mobs and wreck your melee, have fun with that in all those narrow halls.
Boss mechanics that were punishing on M0 are often one hit kills or close to it by mid-level keys. Even unavoidable targeted damage often requires defensives to survive with enough room for the healer to catch you in time. Increased boss health, especially on Tyrannical weeks, means the fight drags out much longer with more chance for things to go wrong or people to run out of cooldowns. Boss adds often adopt trash affixes as well. Have fun with Tol Dagor, where the sandworm's adds all spawn AOE-immune time bombs and upheaval does 90k damage, the bomb lady has 5.7 million health and takes 4-5 minutes to kill, and Korgus randomly targets the same three people with unavoidable attacks over and over until they're all taking 60k ticks apiece.
Beyond that, some affix combinations were flagrantly untested to begin with. We've had several weeks where certain bosses became outright impossible and had to be hotfixed. Last week, the adds-spawn-explosives thing happened on Underrot's final boss...and ALL of the spores. Certain combos with Fortified mean most dungeons are likely going to be a wash altogether because the trash just takes too damn long to kill.
On top of all that, you only get one attempt for your keystone, and you can't replace party members if they leave. If you clear the dungeon but fail to make the timer, your keystone downgrades and you have to do another one just to get back up to where you were. If you fail to clear the dungeon at all, you don't even get a replacement until you do a M0, clear someone else's keystone, or wait till the weekly chest. Skill gates are high, DPS gates are high, and stress is high.
That brings us to Raider IO. Between the high difficulty and one-shot nature of the thing, people can't afford to pull in random pugs who might play badly, or even merely well. They can't rely on ilvl to gauge ability because even very poor players can stumble their way to 360+ through emissaries, warfronts, warforges, and getting carried through Heroic Uldir farms. IO shows you very quickly what their actual M+ progress is, so you can see if they've been failing to timer or even clear keys. If you bring in a pug with a Raider score that says they've timered a +10, you know they know what they're doing.
For instance if you look at mine ( https://raider.io/characters/us/ner-zhul/Sevaryn ), you'll see something very mediocre. I mostly do low carries to gear up applicants and alts, and I don't really run anything high outside of a +10 for the chest with whatever guildies happen to still need it Monday night and don't care about the timer. If I suddenly decided I gave a damn and started signing up for premades, I'd probably get turned down. It doesn't mean I'm bad per se, but they wouldn't consider me worth risking their one shot with a good keystone (nor would I TBH).
This has problems, of course. Naturally this divides the community because people don't like getting turned down without being given a chance, and the problem is also kind of self-reinforcing because people breaking into the process don't get a lot of chances to prove themselves even if they are good. Additionally, people will inevitably start to demand inflated scores even for lower keys.
Mechanically, IO score has sample set problems. It's a sum of your best runs of each dungeon drawn from Blizzard's leaderboard API. If you're on a high-pop server it's very possible to have a good record that doesn't even make the cut, because Blizz's boards only include the highest 500 runs per dungeon per server. The easier dungeons like Atal and Waycrest often have those 500 runs hogged by a lot of repeat names because they're used to pump keys to higher levels.
Furthermore, most of the clears people get their final scores from are holdovers from much easier affix weeks. A couple weeks ago we had Tyrannical/Teeming/Volcanic, which don't really synergize well with each other. So people just ran all of the dungeons on the easy week to pump their scores across the board for the rest of the season. Having a Raider score that shows +10 timers in all dungeons isn't exactly meaningless -- it's still legit hard -- but a bunch of +10 timers on an easy week doesn't mean they're going to be able to handle the Fortified/Teeming/Explosive cluster%^-* we're going to have in a couple weeks.
All of those problems said though, it's much better than nothing. M+ is fundamentally high-risk, and failing means you're set back by a whole run. People can't afford to risk total randos.
M+ is a very difficult timed run with significant scaling beyond M0, extra added mechanics each week (floor hazards, spawning bombs, mobs nuke the party or buff each other when they die, etc), and you only get one attempt to advance your key. You can carry people in low keys, but even by mid level everyone has to be nearly flawless to make the timer, and significant class balance deficiencies start becoming impossible to ignore.
The timer is invariably too strict to take a safe path through the dungeon, so risky skips and patrol !@#$ery are common -- many of them use things like rogue AOE stealth and are unrepeatable if you wipe without getting a checkpoint afterward, and other bosses are fought with nearby trash still alive and ready to asspull if positioning isn't careful. The timer is also too strict to use much CC, so nearly all pulls have to be controlled live with precise stuns and interrupts while they're all cleaved down quickly. DPS have to be 100% on the ball controlling them, tanks have to blow cooldowns liberally to survive and often have to kite at a moment's notice, and healers have to have strong throughput and endurance even if everyone else avoids everything they can.
On top of that, the keystone can have affixes where the trash might buff each other or nuke the party when they die, randomly spawn bombs that have to be killed before they nuke, or even spawn additional mobs in trash. You think those 5-pulls in Freehold are fun? Wait till they're 8+ because they're so large entire packs unavoidably link. Think Waycrest is easy? Oh, now dying mobs all drop large blood pools that heal the other mobs and wreck your melee, have fun with that in all those narrow halls.
Boss mechanics that were punishing on M0 are often one hit kills or close to it by mid-level keys. Even unavoidable targeted damage often requires defensives to survive with enough room for the healer to catch you in time. Increased boss health, especially on Tyrannical weeks, means the fight drags out much longer with more chance for things to go wrong or people to run out of cooldowns. Boss adds often adopt trash affixes as well. Have fun with Tol Dagor, where the sandworm's adds all spawn AOE-immune time bombs and upheaval does 90k damage, the bomb lady has 5.7 million health and takes 4-5 minutes to kill, and Korgus randomly targets the same three people with unavoidable attacks over and over until they're all taking 60k ticks apiece.
Beyond that, some affix combinations were flagrantly untested to begin with. We've had several weeks where certain bosses became outright impossible and had to be hotfixed. Last week, the adds-spawn-explosives thing happened on Underrot's final boss...and ALL of the spores. Certain combos with Fortified mean most dungeons are likely going to be a wash altogether because the trash just takes too damn long to kill.
On top of all that, you only get one attempt for your keystone, and you can't replace party members if they leave. If you clear the dungeon but fail to make the timer, your keystone downgrades and you have to do another one just to get back up to where you were. If you fail to clear the dungeon at all, you don't even get a replacement until you do a M0, clear someone else's keystone, or wait till the weekly chest. Skill gates are high, DPS gates are high, and stress is high.
That brings us to Raider IO. Between the high difficulty and one-shot nature of the thing, people can't afford to pull in random pugs who might play badly, or even merely well. They can't rely on ilvl to gauge ability because even very poor players can stumble their way to 360+ through emissaries, warfronts, warforges, and getting carried through Heroic Uldir farms. IO shows you very quickly what their actual M+ progress is, so you can see if they've been failing to timer or even clear keys. If you bring in a pug with a Raider score that says they've timered a +10, you know they know what they're doing.
For instance if you look at mine ( https://raider.io/characters/us/ner-zhul/Sevaryn ), you'll see something very mediocre. I mostly do low carries to gear up applicants and alts, and I don't really run anything high outside of a +10 for the chest with whatever guildies happen to still need it Monday night and don't care about the timer. If I suddenly decided I gave a damn and started signing up for premades, I'd probably get turned down. It doesn't mean I'm bad per se, but they wouldn't consider me worth risking their one shot with a good keystone (nor would I TBH).
This has problems, of course. Naturally this divides the community because people don't like getting turned down without being given a chance, and the problem is also kind of self-reinforcing because people breaking into the process don't get a lot of chances to prove themselves even if they are good. Additionally, people will inevitably start to demand inflated scores even for lower keys.
Mechanically, IO score has sample set problems. It's a sum of your best runs of each dungeon drawn from Blizzard's leaderboard API. If you're on a high-pop server it's very possible to have a good record that doesn't even make the cut, because Blizz's boards only include the highest 500 runs per dungeon per server. The easier dungeons like Atal and Waycrest often have those 500 runs hogged by a lot of repeat names because they're used to pump keys to higher levels.
Furthermore, most of the clears people get their final scores from are holdovers from much easier affix weeks. A couple weeks ago we had Tyrannical/Teeming/Volcanic, which don't really synergize well with each other. So people just ran all of the dungeons on the easy week to pump their scores across the board for the rest of the season. Having a Raider score that shows +10 timers in all dungeons isn't exactly meaningless -- it's still legit hard -- but a bunch of +10 timers on an easy week doesn't mean they're going to be able to handle the Fortified/Teeming/Explosive cluster%^-* we're going to have in a couple weeks.
All of those problems said though, it's much better than nothing. M+ is fundamentally high-risk, and failing means you're set back by a whole run. People can't afford to risk total randos.
6 Likes
Raider.io is a tool that has arisen as a result of the reward systems Blizzard has implemented, and is a tool that is generally misused by the community. The score itself doesn't necessarily reveal what you need it to, but is a quick way to see if someone understands what M+ is all about.
IMO, the community would be better served if the addon showed the recruits experience for the dungeon you are looking to complete, rather than a 'score', since scores are almost always misinterpreted.
That being said, in BFA, 355-370 loot is relatively easy to obtain, and Blizzard has created no learning curve for players. If you need 370 gear or better, you need to do +7's or higher. In Legion, most people started with 2's and 3's which were easier and worked their way up because they were properly incentivized (too much so at the start, but it was fixed). And if they out geared something, it was fine because of legendary chances and AP. The current system does not encourage over geared players into doing lower keys and does not encourage people to 'work their way up'. I can definitely understand the frustration in having to start at the bottom if you know you will get nothing from it, outside of a super lucky titanforge.
I guess I understand why people use it and why people hate it too, but none of it is really Raider.IO's fault. It's a good tool imo.
IMO, the community would be better served if the addon showed the recruits experience for the dungeon you are looking to complete, rather than a 'score', since scores are almost always misinterpreted.
That being said, in BFA, 355-370 loot is relatively easy to obtain, and Blizzard has created no learning curve for players. If you need 370 gear or better, you need to do +7's or higher. In Legion, most people started with 2's and 3's which were easier and worked their way up because they were properly incentivized (too much so at the start, but it was fixed). And if they out geared something, it was fine because of legendary chances and AP. The current system does not encourage over geared players into doing lower keys and does not encourage people to 'work their way up'. I can definitely understand the frustration in having to start at the bottom if you know you will get nothing from it, outside of a super lucky titanforge.
I guess I understand why people use it and why people hate it too, but none of it is really Raider.IO's fault. It's a good tool imo.
10/30/2018 04:05 PMPosted by ComedyThis game requires people to play with to get anything done. Tools like raider io are useful, but it's not hard to see why it would cause tension in the community, especially if you have a hard time finding a group of people to play with.
I've cleared +9's in time, but it can still take an hour or two to find a +9 or 10's that are willing to take me. I'm a 368 item level priest and play alliance side. But my io score is only 490 because I haven't bothered to do every single dungeon on a higher key. Some of them simply aren't worth the attempts with pug.
Imagine now you're not one of the mythic+ meta dps classes, it gets even harder to find groups. Nobody wants to spend most of their time just trying to find a group. +10's are in short supply on the alliance side. Plenty of good players capable of doing them, but not enough keys with good tanks/healers who are willing to take off meta classes. Even a good io score won't get you into groups 10 and over. So yeah, people are going to be frustrated by it.
The fact is there is a shortage of groups in the game with quality players who are willing to mentor others and have the patients to see not so good players improve. People want to learn by playing the game, they don't want to learn by reading guides, and watching other people play.
So level your own key, like those precious few others did? If groups are so scarce you should be able to fill one in like two minutes
Actually, it IS uncommon. So uncommon that I pug keys 2-3x a week and have yet to see this happen.10/30/2018 05:05 PMPosted by TriggersPeople will ask for ridiculously inflated scores for beginner content, much like Gearscore when it was used. It's not uncommon to see people looking for 1000+ scores on a +2 key.
This is a myth perpetuated by people who don't pug keys.
1 Like
10/30/2018 05:10 PMPosted by VarassaI don't believe the majority of players that use IO think this way. You can't assume they all think like this.10/30/2018 04:11 PMPosted by Ralanbék"I'm pro, your poo" ...uninstall my game baddie.
And I wonder about how many Mythic+ are completed in Guild groups/Pre-mades that aren't Pugged.
That may very well be true, but reading a lot of the replies in this thread and similar themed ones would suggest otherwise.
so about people claiming buying keys invalidate keys..... lets look at pricing,,, its about 200k gold on my realm for a run or 2 wow tokens so to invalidate raider i.o. you would have to buy 10 runs or 2 MILLION gold or 20 wow tokens..... understand a few ppl do this but comon seriously most ppl cant afford this and have u tried to make money this x-pack? stop hiding behind the invalidation due to buying runs cuz it is more often then not easy to witness due to these price levels i have just told u
2 Likes