Why do you support Saurfang or Sylvanas?

Lore Story Forum
145

Yes. Civilians can die when they allow a government to wage war in their name. Small wonder you can not grasp that.

The fall of Czarist Russia is a good example of people being fed up with a war their leaders started, and putting it to an end.

World War 1 was devasting to the common people in Russia. When the Marxist revolution took control of the major cities, they withdrew Russia from World War 1.

It is up to the people to effect change in leadership or suffer the consequences of their leader’s choices.

I can understand Sira and Delaryn being upset with the failed leadership of the Alliance. Genn provoked the war that claimed them. That is just one example of a good reason for their enmity towards the Alliance - thoughtless leadership.

146

There’s the objective quality of actions which Arthas performed, that are condemned and recognized as wrong.

Sylvanas is currently performing them.

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147

You still havent provided the proof that Sylvanas and Saurfang attacked Tyrande and her people because of what Genn did.

Btw. All you said was pure nonsense. We are talking about Sylvanas attacking Gilneans that are currently refugees because of what Genn and his alliance forces did in Stormheim.

This has nothing to do with citizens being tired of war or bad living conditions.

148

I’m arguing against reductive morality, not that Sylvanas isn’t currently batshirt. You’re preaching to the choir on this one. Mostly.

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149

I guess you didn’t read A Good War. Here is some of the text. From Page 11:

Her eyebrows lowered. “With Genn Greymane in his ear? We will see.”

That was a concern, Saurfang had to concede. In the thick of the fighting against the Burning Legion, Greymane had launched a mission to kill Sylvanas. It had gotten some of Stormwind’s few remaining airships destroyed.

There were whispers that Greymane had ordered the attack without Anduin’s permission, but as far as Saurfang knew, Greymane had not been punished. The implications of that were troubling, and every possible explanation led to same conclusion: the old worgen would always drive the Alliance toward war against the Horde.

Sylvanas’s eyes glittered. “And the boy is becoming a man. What if that man decides that he has no choice but to launch a war on us?”

She pointed at the map. There was a large marking in Silithus, the place where the Dark Titan’s blade had pierced the world. “No matter what I do, that will change the balance of power. Azerite sightings are coming in from across the world, Saurfang. We still do not know its full potential, nor does the Alliance. We only know that it will create a new generation of warfare. What will war look like in twenty years? In a hundred?”

Saurfang’s voice had dropped to a low growl. “A hundred years of peace is a worthy goal.” But as soon as the words left his mouth, he wanted to take them back. He knew what Sylvanas would say.

And he would agree with it.

He thinks of Genn and his actions leading to one conclusion. The same conclusion as Sylvanas. Which he agrees with.

Yes. People will suffer under the choices of bad leadership if they allow it.

The Russians during WW 1 were tired of their leadership and overthrew it, then ended their involvement in the war.

If the civilians allow leaders to provoke war in their name, they have to deal with the consequences.

Leadership choices like Tyrande and Genn’s may be why some Night Elves, like Delaryn and Sira, are so glad to kill the Alliance - but that’s just one possible reason out of many to speculate.

150

I’m just gunna shudup now and read CW’s post. I’m pretty sure you’re tired of arguing w/ me too.

gg :wink:

151

Still absolutely zero mention of Tyrande OR the fact that because Genn attacked them that Sylvanas now has the go ahead to find and kill any Gilnean she could get her hands on.

Except I never brought that up nor argued for it.
You did.
We are discussing your insane idea that because Genn with his 7th Legion forces attacked Sylvanas that because Tyrande accepted Gilnean refugees then all Night Elf lands and its citizenry are now fair game to invade and kill.
Please note at this time both factions are NOT officially at war.

152

Again:

The implications of that were troubling, and every possible explanation led to same conclusion: the old worgen would always drive the Alliance toward war against the Horde.

This is pretty clearly stating what Saurfang is thinking about Genn’s aggression at the head of Alliances forces - even if some how you fail to grasp it.

As Sylvanas tells Anduin - the Alliance calls for peace when it suits them.

Genn can attempt to assassinate the Warchief, and the Alliance thinks their capitals will stand safe? Bad idea.

Genn never made an open and formal declaration of war before he opened fire - he just attacked the Warchief. The Horde extended his new hosts the same courtesy.

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153

So?
You are the one that brought up Tyrande and her foolish action of sheltering the Gilneans. Nowhere does Saurfang or Sylvanas state that Genn’s people must now pay some sort of blood price.

They just mention he is hostile towards the Horde which given his past is perfectly reasonable as to why. If you are going to make a claim then back it up.
Your head canon is not actual canon.

Wow what a leap.
There are several things wrong with your statement. But lets focus on the highlighted part.

When does Saurfang or Sylvanas bring up destroying capitals as reprisals for Genns attempt at Sylvanas’ life? They never explicitly state it do they? This is just your own imagination isn’t it?

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Never once did I say Sylvanas or Saurfang destroyed a city in retaliation for Stormheim. So… OK?

I certainly have said - repeatedly - that it was Genn and Tyrande’s failed leadership that caused the city to burn and their people to die.

Stormheim was in Saurfang’s mind as an example of inevitable Alliance aggression with Genn as a leader. Which is why he agreed with Sylvanas’s arguments.

Genn’s action gave Saurfang enough justification in his mind to agree with Sylvanas and plan the War of Thorns. After the Alliance was defeated, Sylvanas ordered Teldrassil burned.

That is not head canon. Those are events in a chain that build upon each other. You can’t just take the Burning of Teldrassil without considering why Saurfang agrees to the War in the first place.

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155

You did.
I already quoted you several times. You cant back out of it now.

There.
Word for word.

156

Um… No you did not.

Not once have I said Stormheim was stated as a reason to burn Teldrassil by Saurfang or Sylvanas… But it did burn because of Genn’s actions at Stormheim.

I said Genn’s actions at Stormheim led to Teldrassil burning. But I never said that Stormheim was a reason Sylvanas or Saurfang gave to burn it. It was not even up to Saurfang.

You say:

You are quoting me where I blame Genn’s actions …But the names Saurfang and Sylvanas aren’t even in that quote…

So, no. You are inventing that I ever said Saurfang or Sylvanas burned Teldrassil in response to Stormheim.

I have consistently and repeatedly said it was Genn’s actions at Stormheim that got Saurfang to agree with Sylvanas and plan the invasion. Genn’s actions led to Teldrassil burning and Tyrande led her people into a murderous Alliance. And her people died because of the choices of Genn and Tyrande.

157

And yet somehow you still blame Tyrande for accepting Gilnean refugees as to why her lands and people are targeted.

Suuure.
You seem to want it both ways.

You say it is not a reprisal but the mere presence of Genn’s people in Tyrande’s lands is a mistake and Tyrande’s fault.
You are insane and the level of mental gymnastics you perform are olympic worthy.

No I quoted you word for word. There is no ambiguity here. You are just being squeezed inside an ever shrinking argument.

158

It is mostly Genn’s actions that are to blame, yes, but Tyrande has some responsibility.

She did entangle her people into an unwieldy and irresponsible military Alliance. An Alliance in which commanders can use the Allied military to attempt assassinations on Foreign leaders for personal vendettas, and still maintain their position.

159

So hypothetically Alliance is within their right to pull a Teldrassil level tragedy on Taurens, Blood Elves, Orcs, Trolls, Forsaken, Goblins and All Horde Allied races. Relentlessly killing every single person because they are part of the Horde?

No matter how unrelated they are to the War of Thorns incident? Did I get that right?

160

That is a silly question.

If the Alliance committed such an act - the “right” seems irrelevant. No one was able to stop them.

Arguing about who has “the right” to do anything seems like an irrelevant argument in the context of the story.

I can take a Dragons head for a variety of petty reasons, but what right do I have to it?

/shrug

I just grab it

But specifically:

Shandris espouses a view close to it. She is even down for killing exiled Zandalari who she knows are not in the Horde.

161

When roles reverse. Suddenly so do the goal posts. Why am I not surprised?

Alright I had enough fun for one night. Ciao.

162

You speak that as though it were the gospel truth.

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Here is how he argues.
Lets take this latest line of argument which began with wether or not Sylvanas’ actions were justified.

You have your typical excuses and a new one I have seen which is basically because Tyrande accepted refugees who are related to Genn and her affiliation to the Alliance makes her guilty of everything or somehow complicit.

Nevermind how idiotic that is I give him a hypothetical of the Alliance retribution would involve a complete eradication of every single Horde race exactly like Sylvanas did purely because they are part of the Horde. Not even if they participated in War of Thornes but just their membership is enough to judge them as guilty. But suddenly we are not longer talking about circumstances but the philosophical question of “what is right?”

After all within CW’s mind the fact that these people are part of the Horde and their leader’s failure to stop the onslaught is actually their own fault.

TDLR: CW is just a hypocrite that likes to victim blame. Thats all.
Just watch him try some mental gymnastics to try to justify himself OR simply say “thats not what I meant” when we all know perfectly well that is exactly what he meant.

164

Yo, just throw in the towel guys, it’s not worth arguing over.

Remember the words of Taran Zhu. One of you just needs to turn from one another and walk away.