Fair point. I thought about but, but wasn’t convinced her popularity alone could spawn all this (plus my own views on her make it hard to understand her popularity), so I asked.
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Despite being suspicious at first I do appreciate you asking the question now. It led to some great discussion (which trolls will derail and hijack in the morning).
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If I can make a suggestion, I don’t think the various “But what about this character?” really works in this thread. If serious this question isn’t really “Did Sylvanas really have it worst?” but why some people connect with the character.
So far, even major characters, they have not explored as much as Sylvanas (and lots of people haven’t played the RTSs, especially 1&2) But Sylvanas’s trauma has been put front and center for much of her story, in WC3, and then leading up to her confronting Arthas in Wrath, that’s been her story. People may connect with the emotions, the desire to be able to strike back and so on. Blizz put a lot of this front and center with that character, not necessarily in the best way, but it was there for people to connect with.
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I wasn’t sure about Alexstraza and Tyrannastraz with that dragon soul business, because they had a pre-established consensual sexual relationship. But you have a point.
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Yup.
And again is the only suicide from straight up depression
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Going to bed, late night dark meme song relevant to sylvanas:
It’s okay, we’re old.
/wakes up
/reads thread
/resembles that remark
But more seriously, even when I was a wee lad who didn’t discuss the lore with anyone outside my brother, I got the “sexual assault” vibe from what Arthas did to Sylvanas in WC 3.
I kind of thought it was intentional. It was only much later, when I started discussing the lore with others on the internet, that I became aware of pushback against that idea. But even as a kid, it seemed like a way to touch on the impact that such events might cause to one’s psyche.
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This is a serious thread and I will be respecting that so please take my questions as serious ones.
While I acknowledge that Sylvanas was abused in a way that many victims/survivors can identify with does that abuse justify what she has done? It explains it to a degree certainly, but is there a way to acknowledge her trauma while addressing her actions?
If you abuse someone because yourself was abused, you have to face the consequences for your dessicion aswell. Its not an excuse, its a kind of explonation but no excuse for your own misdeeds.
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The question that would logically follow that would probably devolve into an argument and derail the thread so instead I am going to ask a different question.
What would be a better way of writing characters similar to and including Sylvanas going forward?
I want to add that I feel that this was an intentional choice that was doubled down on, because excerpts from the Arthas book make it weirdly intimate and personal at points which go beyond the simple fantasy act of killing an enemy and turning them into a zombie.
Fear spiked in her for a heartbeat, then faded as everything else was beginning to. He would raise her, as one of those grotesque shambling things?
“No,” she murmured, her voice sounding as if it came from a long way off. “You wouldn’t…dare….”
Arthas leaned in to her, his gaze locked with hers. Sylvanas coughed, fine droplets of blood spattering his bone- pale face
Agony shot through her, agony such as she had never known, and Sylvanas suddenly knew that no physical pain she had ever endured could hold a pale candle to this torment. This was an agony of the spirit, of her soul leaving her lifeless form and being trapped. Of a…ripping, tearing, yanking back from that warm sanctuary of silence and stillness. The violence of the act added to the exquisite torment, and Sylvanas felt a scream welling up, forcing its way from deep inside, past lips that somehow she knew were no longer physical, a deep keening wail of a suffering that was not hers alone, that froze blood and stopped hearts.
“It did not have to be this way. Know that your fate, theirs, and that of your people, rests upon your choices"
She floated beside him, his shiny new toy, her body gathered up and flung on one of the meat wagons to who knew what sick end Arthas could devise.
Never, she told the voice in her head. He directs my actions, but Arthas cannot break my will.
Arthas had enjoyed turning beautiful, proud, strong- willed quel’dorei women into banshees, after his “success” with her.
He also basically makes her take a walk of shame through Silvermoon so everybody can see what he did to her.
And this metaphor doesn’t end with Sylvanas; a lesser form of it is woven into the playable race itself and was part of what made it unique (until later game additions spread it around to both factions, hence why people start bringing up Death Knights now). It’s not an in-universe excuse for anything she did afterward, but it is something some fans will lament because it was a shame to see the character turn out this way. The metaphor doesn’t just go away as soon as the character starts doing contradictory things, so I feel what the game has ended up with is a story that effectively told “Everyone really would have been better off if this victim killed herself” which is a repugnant moral, even if unintentional.
I think that’s why some horde players got hope when Sylvanas became warchief. It looked like a last-gasp chance at the character turning around, becoming more heroic (or at least anti-heroic) and would show her finally starting to accept what she had. Besides, they wouldn’t villain-bat the warchief twice in a row, riiiiight?
Now Blizzard’s stuck trying to make players pity someone who made multiple unpitiable actions. Good luck.
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No, and I don’t think it always has to. Characters can do bad things or make the wrong choice for bad reasons. We definitely see that alot of people are raw towards Sylvanas in the lore. Maybe in RP, the situation is more serious. But it is pretty simple to enjoy some aspects of a Fictional Character while disliking others.
Especially modern fans, who may be more familiar with the various other popular works like films, comics, and other games. We are used to Characters being handed off to other writers, and changing completely.
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This a thousand times.
It’s old, now we know that Sylvanas did even worse things, but:
It’s also weird to me how people who see Sylvanas as an abuse victim also cheer for her when she commits genocide against innocents, does the same kind of abuse to others (Delaryn) etc…
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Not sure the rape parallels were intended originally, maybe Christie Golden was the one who shoehorned those themes in. Regardless, they’re canon now for better or worse.
Ironically, I could have accepted Sylvanas as warchief without complaint if not for three things;
- Making Sylvanas Warchief involved throwing Vol’jin under the bus.
- Blizzard’s over-the-top favoritism towards Sylvanas.
- If she actually had good character progression instead of abandoning the fight against the Legion to chase a “Get out of Death/Hell/the Maw Free” card.
I wouldn’t know if the metaphor was originally intended or not, but I do remember reading that Sylvanas’s entire character was created specifically to die and get raised in this manner. The only reason why it didn’t happen to Jaina was apparently because Blizzard was worried about making her a repeat of Kerrigan from Starcraft.
The last sympathy I had for Sylvanas died with Teldrassil and Delaryn. I wish someone said the following to Sylvanas in that cinematic; “Now you’re Arthas.”
That is the problem with the cycle of abuse. Some people feel justified in their actions because they had it done to them. True strength is letting go and ending the cycle instead of passing it on. But it is easy to let the trauma consume you.
Personally I just feel this type of story was done better with a character like Catra from She-ra 2018 or Zuko from Avatar: The Last Airbender. Some of the things Sylvanas has done, like murdering millions of innocents to empower Uncle Z crosses that line of no return. I guess the reason why is because both of those characters I listed had a character that tried to pull them out of the cycle (Scorpia and Iroh respectively), but also had a character bond with them that didn’t judge them on their worst mistakes (Melog and Toph respectively).
The question is, which two characters can do that for Sylvanas? Honestly Nathanos should’ve acted as that moral compass in a weird way. Especially after having that happy memory of him and Sylvanas before the third war seen in Dark Mirror. Maybe make him have doubts of the plan. I kinda got that impression from the loyalist ending. While Anduin could be the one who doesn’t judge. Problem is, blizzard screwed up on both ends. If Nathanos was that moral center, having the Jailer secretly keep him away from Sylvanas after his death in the pre-patch would’ve been more impactful. Just have a look at the meltdown Catra had when Scorpia left in the latter half of Season 4 of She-ra 2018. It would make sense as to why Sylvanas would cling to Zovaal as everyone that cared about her left, but alas blizzard doesn’t really plan their stories that far forward. They tend to wait for audience reactions these days (e.g. Denatharius).
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Oh yikes what happened to her was way worse that what happened to Sylvanas.
Thats a horror show thats probably going to win some oscars. Its depressing enough so its right up the Academy’s alley.
I’m banking on Anduin. Because it seems like in the new Sylvanas’s novel, he’s a parallel to Sylvanas’s little brother Lirath.