Why did he need to experience Teld to get to this frame of mind?
I mean wasn’t the whole Draenei and SW incidents enough for this whole Azeroth Kumbaya moment?
Its like we have been down this road before? Why didn’t you realize this sooner old man?
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I was really hoping that they would touch upon the fact that Saurfang rejected his undead son as “corrupted” and they would focus on him forgiving his son for becoming “corrupted” against his will… but they didn’t even mention why Drannosh died at all…
Do players who picked up the game in BfA know that he killed his own son?
It’s hard to watch the Old Soldier cinematic and have sympathy for Drannosh’s death when in hindsight he could have been saved. He could have become a Horde aligned Death Knight, leader of the Horde’s Ebon Blade… but he was killed by Saurfang because he didn’t want Drannosh’s undeath to tarnish is purity.
Saurfang’s whole BfA arc seemed ham-fisted.
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Because Blizz decided that Teld had to happen, and that the Horde had to be a tool for it I suppose? So it was as good an excuse as any. Like, Saurfang might have always realized the horrors of what his generation did, but being essentially tricked into being complicit in the type of act he never wanted to be a part of again (the burning of Teld) is a reasonable enough segway to voice those realizations. I guess…
At the end of the day, Saurfang was no more free to do what he wanted than any other character in BfA. Both Horde and Alliance. Like the rest of the Horde, he was merely a vehicle to be driven to settup SLs. While the Blues were just passengers. Neither side had any control. At least the guy was allowed to have an opinion on Teld. That’s far, far more leeway than the vast majority of our reps and characters were allowed.
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This, very much this.
I think you know it. It’s simple: All of his BfA story. But this thread isn’t meant to discuss why Blizzard ruined Saurfang for me, but sadly it has become the focus. It’s the opposite. I want to read why people did in fact like him during this arch, which for me is a terrible disaster in every regard. You tried to give me your reasoning, but you too seem only to be fine with it.
See it was the exact opposite for me. Saurfang talking about the Draenei children he slaughtered, his regret that was a good moment of reflection. This was only edgy, putting Anduin over everyone once more and putting the Horde down. For me it was a sign the writers don’t care. This was meant as a good moment for the Horde. Something we would be happy to see and rally behind. I saw this story at least 2 times before and way better. I did not need to see Saurfang ruined over multiple videos to get told: Horde are monsters.
I likley would hate it less if Anduins involvement wasn’t as large as it was and if Saurfang actually went with the Horde champion. I would still have problems with it and not like it, but this is what we got.
Edit: I’m glad for your perspective though, even if I’m arguing back and don’t seem like I would appreciate it.
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My problem is with certain interpretations/reception from people.
Like for someone who is aware of who Saurfang is the BFA arc he had should be a horror story rather a compelling arc.
Its like how many more mistakes does this guy need to commit before he realizes and self corrects?
I guess its similar Jaina with her “beware of me” and then we accelerate to the bleeding heart “we all have blood on our hands”.
Like Lady the other guy is backstroking through the blood while yours is a light sprinkling.
But for anyone who is just encountering Saurfang for the first time and doesnt know much about him then I guess it makes more sense.
I wouldn’t be surprised if this was the case with the writers and why they thought this was such a good idea as an arc.
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TL;DR: the story is not bad, but is on a border of OOC for Varok himself, and does a lot of damage to things that were touched in the process.
I can’t say much about this part, only about how I see the story of Saurfang.
It’s not new. It all is the same old chat about him not eating the pork because of bad memories. Which was in his discussion with Garrosh, in a short story iirc, later repeated in War Crimes. The summary of this “life lesson” of Varok is that it is better to kill your warchief, than allow the horde to be dragged into something “dishonorable”, and such.
Well, guess where this story goes? BfA, pre-patch, Killer Queen quest:
Tyrande Whisperwind says: The entire war is without honor. How dare you spill so much innocent blood… for nothing!
High Overlord Saurfang says: Not for nothing. We spill blood so that the Horde will endure.
And there is no discussion about honour. The devs for the sake of convenience through away the story arc of Varok, just so they can retell that story with their own spin on it, undermining IMO both the character, and the original message that maybe some people liked. From “better to kill a warchief than allow something shady”, to “well, actually if there is some benefit for me, what’s the big deal in throwing your honour away?”
Only to be talked into it by (oh my, it’s such a bad concept) a kid from opposing faction. Just to say how Anduin is great? That all the world will bend around Anduin? That everyone should be Anduin? That the horde is worthless trash incapable of thinking for itself without Anduin?
How much damage and insults could be shoved into story by the devs who create cherry-picked story to go only in the direction favouring their preferred characters? How much damage to beloved characters, stories, and places will that approach bring in the future?
IMO his story arc could’ve been much better, be it in the Legion. And not about the nonsense we got, but aboud orcs going against if not the Legion, but at least Kil’jaeden for what they were turned into. Of course that would mean not as many praises for Anduin, but IMO absense of orcs in general, and Saurfang specifically in a story that is so relevant to who he is, that could actually bring a proper closure to the orc-dranei story arc, is a really sad missed opportunity.
But I see it as a missed one, because IMO that would’ve been relevant in a consistent story. If the main goal is convenience for the narrators, I guess it’s all ok as is.
gl hf
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At the end of the day the Horde didn’t grow. That’s my whole problem, there was no renewed strength found through Saurfang’s arc and now it seems like even Thrall is eager to kowtow to Tyrande and give her whatever she wants to appease her bloodlust.
The Old Horde and it’s warmongering lead to terrible things for sure, but it also lead to strength for the Horde. It lead to them surviving, thriving even. The Iron Horde was technologically advanced. It’s easy to throw the baby out with the bathwater and say all of the Old Horde was bad. but I’m not sure if Thrall’s new Horde is any better.
For me, to have pride in the Horde again, we have to have a balance of strength and honor. We still have to have the strength to stand up to those that threaten to wipe us all out. “Do no harm but take no…” that’s what’s missing in the new Horde. Strength in the face of enemies that would threaten to wipe us all out. I’m really hoping to see Thrall fight back against Tyrande after that whole pathetic meeting in Mount Hyjal in Shadows Rising.
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OOF!
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I am so glad someone caught it.
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Because he rings all of the same bells for people that like tough macho, Worf-like characters.
Big and burly? Check.
Isn’t a “pretty boy”? Check.
Wields big bladed weapon? Check.
Goes on big soliquies about “HOOONOR”? Check.
Satisfy those and you’re golden with the Macho fantasy or Trekkie crowd.
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Lies.
Worf was a big softie.
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Fight back…because…she want to take Responsibility? oh yeah…how much pride the horde have.
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Saurfang didn’t kill or reject his son, though. His son was lost to him, and also I think alliance get the canon clear of ICC so it’s alliance that kill him and Saurfang just comes in to collect the body.
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…he was better than the alternative. Like all things in BFA, he was badly mishandled. The whole story only works if you assume everyone except Sylvanas is a slobbering moron.
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That’s true. I think they could have mentioned during BfA why Dranosh died, for new people though.
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Man…everyone has missed the target
Saurfang represents what’s left of the WC3 playerbase. Thrall’s Horde wasn’t opposed to war, or starting conflict if it meant protecting them…but they mostly wanted peace.
The War of Thorns was meant to capture/kill Malfurion as a bargaining chip to be a decisive and swift victory, leaving the Horde in a place of power to bargain over Azerite. It was never the intent of Saurfang to wipe out the Night Elves.
This coincides with WC3 Horde philosophies — We’ve seen, that when left alone, the alliance poke at the Horde. Its all over Vanilla wow. It was in WotLK with Varian raiding Undercity. The Horde pushes back when shoved, as seen by Garrosh deciding enough was enough.
But that philosophy also incorporates peaceful races like the Tauren, who don’t needlessly kill things. So the idea that literally burning down Teldrassil went against everything Saurfang signed up for (A quick victory using Malfurion as a bargaining chip).
He represents players that have hated the forsaken since day 1…The Kalimdor Horde of Orcs, Tauren, and Trolls, who have been suspicious of the forsaken and their “alliance of convenience”.
He represents a desire to not let Thrall wallow in f#$%ing despair on some foreign planet, and to remind him that the Horde ideals from WC3 are still worth fighting for…and that despite what the writers decide to do, we CAN have that type of a Horde again.
Is he honoroable in terms of humans? No…not really. But he represents something that a large portion of Horde fans fell in love with the Horde for…the WC3 ideology.
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I liked Saurfang because he was an honourable warrior who was put into a terribnle situation, and had to justify and soul-search his way out of it, to forge a new path for himself, and find the destiny (an honourably death) he so craved.
I liked how they showed him struggling with his son’s death, something that happened in WOTLK. He’s a veteran, and he’s remorseful in his older years as he realizes the gravity of what others drove him to, on the supposed path of Glory.
What a great character.
I play Horde too.
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Um, like Sarm said, this didn’t happen. I don’t even think he would’ve known Dranosh was made a death knight until after the fact. Canon-wise the Alliance got ICC. So technically we the players storm ICC, encounter undead Saurfang Jr. Kill him, and THEN Saurfang shows up to claim his body.
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Sure but someone was going to play Surfangs role. Because it was the only way for blizzard save some face on the horde side. Someone was going to have to play the guilt role.
The big failing of Saurfang’s BFA story IMO is simply the fact that the story got railroaded into a Horde-evil faction war based on flimsy reasoning that was only taken seriously because the characters are written by the same writers who write the story. And one of the main vehicles of that railroading based on flimsy reasoning, was Saurfang.
It took precious little in the way of concrete justification for him to plan and participate in a war of aggression with the goal of crippling the night elves as a people. That simple fact makes the entire rest of his story less sympathetic, because what the hell was he expecting? Does he think the principle of what he did is any different just because it wouldn’t have the same level of visceral climactic imagery? Would he have been okay with killing the draenei if they didn’t literally pave a highway with their remains?
Removing that one element seriously improves his storyline for the entire rest of the expansion. Still not perfect, it still has other issues, but at least his well-publicized angst would be more likely to land with the audience.
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