Why do Horde races want to be in the horde?

Lore Story Forum
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Except the reference(Lord of the Clans) only has Thrall as the gladiator. And he also fought mostly humans in said ring.

What he did as a slave or who he fought is irrelevant.

Which again, was mostly composed of humans. Thrall seemed like he was the exception, not the rule because most orcs lost the will to fight.

See above.

Sounds to me like it was an underground deal/not something the Alliance higher up actually approved.

You really think the Alliance higher up would’ve made a fuss whether or not people were taking orcish slaves?

Again, this is more penal labor as oppose to slavery.

It’s not penal labor, it’s slavery. I wonder what Thrall’s name means…

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162

It relevant in that the wowpedia articual you mention seems to thing this was something that happened often as oppose to Thrall being the only orc in the gladiatorial ring/was the exception.

Which as I kept mentioning, he was the exception and not the rule. That the people in the internment camps were those who did attack the Alliance/was trying to wipe out the world. I’d also point out if the Silvermoon elves had their way they would have preferred all the orcs be executed. Why exactly are we not condemning them as oppose to the Alliance?

On this note, the Forsaken also happen to be members of the Horde now. Why exactly should the Alliance be blamed for the internment camps when the Forsakens would be just as responsible, if not more so?

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It relevant in that the wowpedia articual you mention seems to thing this was something that happened often as oppose to Thrall being the only orc in the gladiatorial ring/was the exception.

Thrall’s status as a gladiator, is again, irrelevant. He was a slave to the worst of them all. Greekik was kept as Lorin Remka’s cook while Lord Agrovane bought Rehgar Earthfury to use as a gladiator.

I’d also point out if the Silvermoon elves had their way they would have preferred all the orcs be executed. Why exactly are we not condemning them as oppose to the Alliance? Alliance?

On this note, the Forsaken also happen to be members of the Horde now. Why exactly should the Alliance be blamed for the internment camps when the Forsakens would be just as responsible?

Neither the Silvermoon high elves or the Forsaken are what’s being debated.

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So do we blame the entire Alliance for the failing of one man/a few individuals? You know that if Blackmore had his way he would have destroyed the Alliance/taking Lordearon from the Alliance?

I mean if you want to play that game Gul’dan, Ner’zhul, Blackhand are just a few of the names in history who’s actions have dwarfed the evils Blackmore has commited that we can toss at the Horde’s feet.

Why shouldn’t it? Why blame the Alliance when the Silvermoon elves(who are now part of the Horde btw) wanted to do WORSE things to the orcs than what the Alliance did? And shouldn’t the blame fall on the Forsaken as well for you know, being actually citizens of the nation that had build these internment camps in the first place?

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So do we blame the entire Alliance for the failing of one man? You know that if Blackmore had his way he would have destroyed the Alliance/taking Lordearon from the Alliance? I mean if you want to play that game Gul’dan, Ner’zhul, Blackhand are just a few of the names in history who’s actions have dwarfed the evils Blackmore has commited that we can toss at the Horde’s feet.

I’m not doing that. I just woke up a couple minutes ago. Also I am aware these three beings dwarf Blackmoore in evilness, but I also don’t care as they’re not the topic of the debate.

Why shouldn’t it? Why blame the Alliance when the Silvermoon elves wanted to do WORSE things to the orcs than what the Alliance did? And shouldn’t the blame fall on the Forsaken as well for you know, being actually citizens of the nation that had build these internment camps in the first place?

Because ultimately, the elves didn’t get their wish, so hypotheticals are pointless to debate over, and the Forsaken can be blamed only so far as being as you said, citizens. They weren’t running these camps, they weren’t whipping the orcs…

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166

And you think the current Alliance was?

Irrelevant. If anything the Alliance should be praised for not letting them getting their wish. So if the Horde/Horde fans has a complain about how orcs got treated, they should ask the blood elves what they would have done to them had they had the chance.

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And you think the current Alliance was?

I do not think the current Alliance was or is doing this, because they haven’t done it yet.

Irrelevant. If anything the Alliance should be praised for not letting them getting their wish. So if the Horde has a complain about how they got treated, they should ask the blood elves what they would have done to them had they had the chance.

Irrelevant.

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Then we at least agree, if you are not going to blame the Forsaken for the Internment Camp, then neither should the Alliance.

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Meanwhile wowpedia is really written extremely biased.

This is neither neutral nor a neutral interpretation of the sources and I know the sources, that is SO definitely not written XD

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During the following months, Thrall’s small but volatile horde laid waste to the internment camps and stymied the Alliance’s best efforts to counter its clever strategies. Encouraged by his best friend and mentor, Grom Hellscream, Thrall worked to ensure that no orc would be cast into slavery – either by humans or demons – ever again.
https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Warcraft_III:_Reign_of_Chaos_Game_Manual

This is what I mean by comparing atrocities is a weird thing. The other option was to let them rot and die, just over a longer period of time.

There’s also the mess of is it really fair and moral to subject the children who were not guilty of the same crime to the same fate?

Imo, the true ‘less evil’ option would’ve been a long-term relocation and rehabilitation program. That would’ve at least given some indication of long-term planning and that they were having some sort of dialogue with Orc leaders about a future solution and goal.

How effective or practical that would be is up for debate, given the text about how the Alliance was in political turmoil over the issue and people weren’t happy about being taxed for the interment camps. But I think a lack of that shows that there was no real solution for this. Even the mages felt that finding a cure for the Orcs demon infliction was an impudent venture (https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Lethargy_of_the_Orcs).

So we can frame it however we want. Slavery/life imprisonment/penal labor, but the ultimate solution the Humans resorted to was “well just let them figure it out themselves or die.” Which, well, they did figure it out and resulted in even more war down the road.

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171

The Alliance/Terenas did want to rehabilitate them/ultimately have them join the Alliance. The things most is orcs leaders were either dead/or like Hellscream actively attacking the Alliance and the orcs were in a state of Lethargy to boot. Not to mention the understanble fear the orcs might just try to wipe everyone out again.

Or we frame it for what is, that the Alliance was barely keeping itself together and that the orcs rehabilitation was low on that priority due to the fact there were still orcs around causing trouble and the extensive damage that was already caused by them.

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/10 characters

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173

Again, it was not slavery.

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For the actual invaders, maybe. But what about their kids, like Thrall?

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Thrall was always a special case/was blackmoore little project. As for orc kids, here is the things, there were hardly any orc kids left because Gul’dan forced them all to grow. Kids in the camps as far as we know did not actually work. Once they grew up I am not exactly sure what Terenas would have done with them but because they escaped before that was an issue we will never know.
Because ultimately while Terenas did want to rehabilitate the orcs we don’t exactly how he would have done it/that said orc kids wouldn’t have just fallen into the same Lethargy adults have fallen into

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Maybe, but they weren’t free and weren’t given any prospect or path to being free. It may not technically be slavery, but it’s not freedom either. And Thrall was a young adult by the time he broke out.

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I mean that is just a reality of refugees. As for prospect, again Terenas did want them to be free but couldn’t do much about it considering everthing else happening.

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Is there any references to this? It would be new information to me that would change my thoughts on the matter.

Well we have Drek’Thar, and of course Thrall himself.

Through Drek’Thar there’d be a connection to Doomhammer where we do have proof of something because initially “Terenas fervently hoped that a treaty could be arranged.” (https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Orgrim_Doomhammer#Liberation_of_the_orcs:~:text=Terenas%20fervently%20hoped%20that%20a%20treaty%20could%20be%20arranged%20with%20the%20former%20warchief)

Although what that treaty consisted of we have no idea, but I’d assume it would’ve been a better outcome because they’d have someone to organize and convince the Orcs to adopt new values. This would’ve been a good path to keep pursuing. It’s indicative of an organized effort with a long-term solution in mind.

Funnily, enough that was Blackmoore’s plan where he intended for Thrall to lead the Orcs:

Thrall would earn the orcs’ trust and respect in Blackmoore’s plan and would lead them into battle, but Thrall would also have been conditioned to be completely loyal and obedient to Blackmoore by that time and would turn over the kingdom to the human lord once he had conquered it
https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Aedelas_Blackmoore

Yes, they were splintering and there were other threats to take care of. We have one good example here: https://wowwiki-archive.fandom.com/wiki/Blackrock_%26_Roll.

But I don’t think that absolves the Alliance of Lordaeron from fumbling with the entire situation.

Do not mistake this as support or approval of what the Orcs did. That link shows that there were still some Orcs that were worshipping demons. Clearly, the average Human was not going to be happy having just gone through a terrible war. But I think criticism needs to be applied on both sides.

Also back to the entire bit of slavery. Honestly, trying to frame a discussion around this leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

I propose settling on Prisoners of War. I think that pays some respect and empathy to the poor conditions that the Orcs had to go through, where you can even read their lethargy as some form of depression/PTSD. While also paying some respect to the socio-political mess that the Alliance of Lordaeron had to resolve and navigate after being the victim of a severe war crime.

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179

Ah but what if they could be returned to a peaceful state, then we will not have to keep them locked up in the camps and the money can be distributed elsewhere-Antonidas, Rise of the Lich King

As for the whole joining them in the Alliance, I think its in Beyond the Dark Portal book, but honestly I’d have to reread it to find it.

Pretty sure the Alliance did not know Drek’thar was there and as for Thrall, the guy had just torn down the interment camps/was attacking Alliance to free any orc he could. Not exactly someone the Alliance was interested in making deals with.

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… What?

Refugees aren’t usually forcibly incarcerated.

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