That was at the original council meeting immediately after the war. They were overruled at the time, and there is no evidence that anyone took any steps to make this happen, or even investigate whether it would be viable, after that.
The lethargy was assumed to be caused by demon blood withdrawal, and it affected the older generation only, not youngsters like Thrall. That generation could have been trained to do something.
The younger generation didn’t have lethargy and didn’t need to be rehabilitated. They hadn’t done anything. You keep talking about the parents, not the kids.
Not really relevant to the question of what to do about the younger generation of orcs that were born in captivity.
The lore did not specify it was just the older generations that were affected by it. In fact, Thrall is probably a special case because his parents never drank the blood thus not making him affected by it.
Again, the lore is orcs in general were affected. There is no lore stating the younger orcs were not affected.
The meeting with Antonidas talking about peacefully releasing the orcs was when Athas/Jaina were already adults. In fact, it was just a few months before Thrall escaped.
It would be relevant because younger orcs might just decide to join said renegades if given enough liberty.
The lore heavily implies that it’s the older generation. The lethargy sets in quite soon after the camps are constructed, before there even is a younger generation, or much of one. Antonidas believes it to be caused by withdrawal from demon blood and demonic influence on their homeworld. This wouldn’t apply to the younger generation, who never had any demon blood and never lived on Draenor. And no one ever says that Thrall is not typical of his generation.
There is no lore stating that they were affected either. Given that the stated reasons for the lethargy don’t apply to the younger generation, the burden is on you to prove that all of them except Thrall experienced lethargy despite not being exposed to any of the factors that caused it.
So there’s evidence that one person (Antonidas) was still interested in doing it. Is there any evidence that anyone listened to him, took any steps to make it happen, or even investigated whether it was a viable possibility?
That shouldn’t stop anyone from at least giving the younger orcs some training, considering that the evidence is against them experiencing lethargy.
The Lethargy was a by product of drinking the blood of Manaroth. Thrall wasn’t affected because he didn’t drink it. Any child that was born on Azeroth wasn’t affected. It seem likely to me that the very young on Draenor wouldn’t have drunk, given what the Orcs were told was purpose of it. Not everyone who had come through the portal had drunk it (like many of the Frostwolves including Durotan and Draka).
Genocide is, by its nature, indiscriminate. Killing every Orc would have killed people who never wanted the first war.
We could even have that character and my hypothetical hotshot general working in cahoots. That way, one of them could be taken out, either by the Horde or internally by the Alliance, while the other somehow wriggles free and maybe even gains extra sway as a result of that. I’m coming up with all kinds of interesting scenarios as to how that could happen, and I could see either one as the scapegoat!
I feel that’s the biggest issue. The Horde needs to have a Warchief.
Warchiefs have been used as villains/raid bosses so many times that the Horde is in a rough spot right now. You guys had the love of the devs and spotlight of the story from Cataclysm up until Legion, but it came at a cost. I know Blizzard JUST implemented the council leadership for the Horde, but I feel the Horde needs a Warchief to rally around and reclaim its identity.
Baine would be the ideal option due to his youth, and if they could give him the development they’ve given Anduin I could see the Horde players coming around to him. Would be fitting if Thrall mentored Cairne’s son, too, considering if Cairne had been younger he would’ve been the choice over Garrosh back in Cataclysm.
I still think Lor’themar is the most ideal choice for a Warchief in the Horde.
The man managed to keep people alive in the midst of scourge remnants until Rommath finally returned with some magisters and could help fight the remnants back.
He brought the Blood Elves back to a firmly set place of power despite total ruin.
He is also a fairly strong warrior himself, he is not afraid of getting down and gritty and in fact prefers it, but he is ultimatively pragmatic, and he favours peace over sending those in his charge into a meat-grinder - but should the latter be absolutely necessary, he would not hesitate.
It is strong leadership that will take charge if push comes to shove. He prefers to avoid the push, and will try to get out of it, but he will not let himself be shoved to the ground before retaliating.
Baine is more the type of character that will let himself be pushed, shoved to the ground and then stomped on before finally screaming: “Enough”
And then go to sit in the corner of the Warchief big-hut while other leaders of the Horde does something about the problems: Vol’jin, Varok, Lor’themar.
Lor’themar also has Halduron and Rommath who can be placed as leader-trophies in Silvermoon City, while Lor’themar’s model is moved to Orgrimmar.
Lor’themar would without a doubt be my immediate pick for a Warchief if the position ever came back. Dude’s objectively a top-tier leader, I don’t see any reason why he’d be a bad Warchief.
Aside from fearing villain-batting, of course. Or immediate death by demon stabbies without having a full term as warchief, and also having your only chance of showing true leadership-in-battle capabilities taken from you by an undead lady (RIP Vol’jin)
I don’t believe so, at least not anymore. After enabling two evil warchiefs, who initiated two world wars and spawned two destructive rebellions, revising its system of government was about all the Horde could do (at least within the game’s constraints) to retain its credibility as a world power. The loss of this iconic facet of the faction is unfortunate, but the Horde was handled so disastrously in BfA that something had to give.
I think the Warchief is iconic, but I think the bigger issue is that the Horde has a lack of epic cinematic moments in plots that aren’t about slaying Alliance.
The last one I can think of was Dranosh charging the Lich King - a uniquely Horde experience, character, and style, acting specifically in the name of the Horde itself, and fighting an enemy to both factions. No working under neutral parties, having to question whether the targets actually deserved the attack, etc.
Make Warchief the military commander, but leave the Council the political ruler who technically has oversight of them- though to be sure, in such a highly militarized society like the Horde, that’s still a huge amount of power.
It does not. Also, the younger generations were all aged up or children of people who did drink demon blood.
Actually, it should be on you to prove it was just the older orcs. Because every conversation on this has the orcs as a people, being affected by it. Never once has there been any lore stating the youngers did not get affected as well.
Antonidas did and his conclusion was a spiritual cure was the only option. Now considering he didn’t even know there were any orcs shaman left I doubt he thought a viable option was possible.
And again, the lore is ALL the orcs were affected, that the lore has never mentioned, for or against, that the younger generations were not affected and has always been about how all the orcs as a people were affected.
No, it isn’t. You haven’t offered one shred of evidence that it was.
But never mind. I know where this is going. I’ve argued with you before, and I know you never, ever, ever admit you’re wrong, no matter how wrong you are. I don’t have the energy for this right now. At least I have the satisfaction of knowing you’re blustering like this because you can’t stand the fact that the Alliance didn’t actually handle the whole camp thing well.
You have not offered any evidence that the younger orcs were not affected when every lore has specificed the orcs as a people was suffering from it.
I think the Alliance tried to handle it as best they could. Could they have done better? Sure. But it not like they caused the problem in the first place. They were simply trying to deal with the fallout of a war they did not want that got tossed their way.
I am not entirely sure what the hell you guys are arguing about.
The lethargy happened to orcs who drank the demon coolaid, that much is stated in the lore. That could have been orcs both young or old. It would not happen to orcs who had not personally been drinking the demon coolaid, otherwise the entire orc population of the Horde in current timeline would be in an unproductive, addict-like state.
Gone but not forgotten.